Differences & Similarity Between Lung Ying and Bak Mei

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

Please contribute & help myself (and everyone else) understand this a bit better, because I think on first sight, both seem very simliar…

I’ll throw a few out for starters:

Lung Ying / Bak Mei

Lower stance / Higher stance
More mobility / More Linear
Regular Fist / P.E. Punch
Softer / Crisper
More hip movement / More shoulder move
No “stomp” ging / Uses stomping ging
Elbow protects ribs / Elbows outward
Right side for. / Left side for.

(of course, there are NO absolutes (ha ha), just trying to flesh out the general differences)

Others would include little details like the Bai Jong movement in Lung Ying is held at more of an angle to Bak Mei’s centre.

Bak Mei bow often borrows from LY.

Gow Bo Toy, IMHO, is the principle difference. This amazing method of power generation is unique to Bak Mei (from all I’ve seen), and gives the whole BM Art credibility on its own.

I love and practice both Arts, but it is hard to keep the principles of both seperate!

Cheers - Kevin

2

Kevin

Hi , when you said “elbow protects ribs/elbow outwards” are you refering to the straight punch and whether the elbow is kept down as apposed to to it coming out the side like a boxers punch?

3

Hi kevin-

Differences-

From what i have seen

Higher stances in bak mei, I think so.

More mobility? as oppose to being less mobile in bak mei?- That i don’t think is correct. Bak mei also uses regular punch too.

Lung ying uses more hips?- Maybe not correct, b/c bak mei uses 6 external powers, and one of them is waist/hip.

Lung ying is softer/bak mei crisper-
That is one noticeble difference between good practitioners. I knew someone who learned both in HK. His words was bak mei is more sharp and aggressive.

I think the principle difference is bak mei uses TTFC. Dragon seem to maintain a more “hunch” type posture. Lum Wun Quan (Lam Yue Quai son in HK) has a permanent hunch type posture, even when not doing kungfu. A result of his type of training??..

Elbow position of bak mei is also down like dragon.

4

I think the stances depend on the teacher, because i have seen Lung Ying stances exactly the same height and angling as bak Mei. The Lung Ying stance is also circular as compared to Bak Mei’s linnear.
Kull is right, you will find that BM’s power also generates from the hip.
In YKM, our system is based on BM, some of the forms are the same, our power generation is the same, principles etc. Yet our stances being circular is based on the Lung Ying system.
BM seems a little more direct in its approach to the opponent (just kill)!!! :slight_smile:

5

Lung Ying/Pak Mei

In my experiences, the differences between the two “styles” cannot really be summed up easily. In the Lung Ying I study, the standard stance is left foot forward (you mention right side forward),also the Dragon I study is more direct and aggressive than the Pak Mei, certainly to begin with, I think the sharp aggressive nature of Pak Mei only comes after a long time in training but can come very quickly in Dragon. Certainly one of the main differences does seem to be the method of power generation. The Dragon I study is anything but soft, in fact although some of the Pak Mei techniques are certainly ‘sharper’ the Dragon are much ‘harder’ literally. Although having said all that,I have also seen Lung Ying that is far more mobile than mine, with more backward and sideward movements in sets.
I think the difference in any art to any other is the teacher, look at any school of anything, each one is coloured by the experiences of each succesive teacher, it cannot fail to be, after all, we are humans not machines. This is not a bad thing, see evolution for the proof of that.

Mark

6

Awesome!

Kevin, thank you for this thread! I am so glad to see you back and active on the board!

I must preface my reply by saying I have never seen bak mei. Only some pictures on the web,
but I know nothing about it except what those of you have generously conveyed in this forum. I am interested in learning more, since most of the discussions on the topic have benefitted my lung ying, and that is my only basis for my opinion that the two arts are probably similar.

I have seen several different branches of lung ying. Since my knowledge pertains to this system,
I can make comparisons between those teachers who practice/teach bak mei (possibly with LY as a
secondary system or incorporating BM principals into LY?) and those who don’t (my style). Kevin, I’ll borrow your concise format.

Lower stance / Higher stance. Yes, this seems to be the case. My lung ying tends to drop the center of gravity much lower. Incidentally, LYK was a big man. His son obviously has similar
physical characteristics. The hunch the Lam family exhibits, IMHO, is conformational, not a method to/result of the style.

More mobility / More Linear. Well, I don’t know. Someone described sarm tone from a teacher
whom also taught bak mei, and there were no corner to corner" moves as in mine.

Regular Fist / P.E. Punch. Obvious.

Softer / Crisper. Having never seen bak mei in motion, I don’t know. Does bak mei strive to be
internal at it’s highest point also? Or is this a dissimilarity? My lung ying is very flowing,
continuous. Maybe this is why it would, on the surface, not look as devastating. But it is.

More hip movement / More shoulder move, No “stomp” ging / Uses stomping ging. Here is probably the biggest difference. Yes, both make use of the entire body to grab/aim/release power. From what I am gathering, the stomp in bak mei maybe what allows a multiple hit in one strike. In order for the second of the multiple strike to take place, is a shorter route of travel (from only the shoulder out) indicated?

Elbow protects ribs / Elbows outward. I would think it would be a similarity, not a difference.

Right side for. / Left side for. Hmmm. I don’t know enough yet. I think lung ying makes equal
use of both sides.

“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi

7

Good coment on the teachers

I began trianing with my first instructor and studied with him for two years before beging my study with his father. his father taught a little different and that is the key. Neither were wrong Just different.
Ng shifu was short and solid, while his father was taller and more lean and sinewy. I am 6’4" and weigh about 235lbs., thus making my kung fu different from thiers. If I tried to preform the way they did I would be working against my own body type.

The crispness or subtlety of the ging also depends upon the focus of the mind. I have seen both arts preformed in different ways by the same people at different times, the mind set has alot to do with it.

Southern arts as I was taught are a dicotomy of both hard and soft it is up to the practitioner to develop the style for his/her self.

Make it work for you, but do not give up the things that make the style what it is.

Daniel

8

Short range combat kungfu…

Lung Ying, Bak Mei, Chu Gar Praying Mantis and Wing Chun are called southern short range combat kungfu. They have some similar concepts about their knees in footworks but there’re still many differences in fighting. Among these four styles, Chu Gar Tong Long has most powerful fingers striks I’ve ever seen, Quite impressed!!! If I wasn’t in wing chun and Chu Gar Tong Long ( not Chow Gar or others Tong Long )is my # 1 pick in my list.

9

The comparison

Hi All,

Interesting observatios, Kevin.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Lung Ying / Bak Mei

Lower stance / Higher stance
More mobility / More Linear
Regular Fist / P.E. Punch
Softer / Crisper
More hip movement / More shoulder move
No “stomp” ging / Uses stomping ging
Elbow protects ribs / Elbows outward
Right side for. / Left side for.[/quote]

On the stances, I would think so. But it may not be the system per se. I think it depends on the Sifu as well.

Mobility wise, Lung Ying has more of a Zig Zag pattern which makes it both circular and angular at the same time. Not to meet force with force is always stressed. Bak Mei, on the other hand, uses TTFC more even in counting incoming strikes instead of using using footwork to disolve it first. With that in mind, a more linear and rootedness in stance isn’t a problem. The argument here would be which one spend more Chi? We have to keep in mind that TTFC to issue Ging does spend more Chi. Lung Ying is very concious about preserving Chi and therefore the fighter. We can see that in the Right forward vs Left side forward.

The fists and the soft/crisp are again about preserve life (the opponents as well). Lung Ying believes in fight if you absolutely have to. Bak Mei fights on occassions to uphold the honor of the style.

Hip or Shoudler. If we are talking spirit of the animals, that would make a lot of sense. Hip/waist is more about the body of the Dragon (body like the snake) which is to strangle the opponent gradually. Tiger style, which Bak Mei is known to base on, issue power from the shoulder. Linear manner of Bak Mei also taken up on the Big feline in its hunting strategy which is to stalk the prey in a stealth mode and then charge violently in a linear fashion.

Stomping is more a Sifu thing and a showy thing. Most of the time, both styles don’t exhibit that in fighting.

Elbows in (close to ribs) or Elbows out (further away from ribs as in old style western boxers) is again about preserveing energy. Here, I surmise there is also a different in the physiques factor of the GMs as well. Sigung Lum was a hugh and tall man. The need to protect the head is less urgent than the ribs; whereas, Sigung Cheung’s case is a bit different. Just a personal POV. That also reflects in the stances as well.

Right/left side forward. Lung Ying’s right side forward is more about not causing direct stress to the heart plus also a strong side forward for most people (not me 'cause I am a lefty). Bak Mei left side forward is because you train to use both side as in balancing the Ying and the Yang. Again there is the preserving the exponent issue in Lung Ying and a Training fighting machine issue in Bak Mei.

Those are my personal observations and don’t represent any schools at all.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

10

here is my 2 cents worth

right foot dragon- heart further away from opponent from being struck, plus lam yui gwai fought side by side with clc(he was left foot forward) so the can fight all angles together. what ive seen of dragon is right foot and hand punching more.

left foot forward bak mei- heart closer to the opponent, but gives rear hand attack on the other persons heart side, center and left side. plus rear hand counter balance.

mantis 108 is correct on the animal postures, preserving chi by going angles i dont think so, bak mei usegs rebound shock power of the opponent, so energy doesnt run out. if to much zig zagging i believe you will run out of steam. sooner or later you have to go in and fight.

power is similar but dragon looks more smashing than piercing.

they are both powerful styles and love watching both schools when demostrating. :smiley:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

11

I still think lung ying incorporates ambidexterity, but it may be my master’s preference to drill that into my head. :slight_smile:

M108:
I think you’ve brought up a very valid point in the attitude of the two styles. The dragon is noble, and the practitioner strives to cultivate this spirit outside of the kwoon. However, let LYK’s record show that it is a brutal art.

Also, I like your interesting comparison of the two GM’s physiques possibly contributing to the styles, even if it has only been proliferated by those seeking to emulate.

Daniel:
Pretty neat insights. See above paragraph. I am not nearly as large as Lam Yiu Kwai, so my lung ying HAS to work off the principals. :slight_smile:

FT:
“preserving chi by going angles i dont think so, bak mei usegs rebound shock power of the opponent, so energy doesnt run out”
The angles deflect, disburse and redirect all incoming force, therefore preserving chi, because the practitioner has nuetralized the threat without using strength, all while opening for an attack. Lung ying, in doing so, also uses the opponent’s energy to catapult into him.

“if to much zig zagging i believe you will run out of steam. sooner or later you have to go in and fight.”
The whole movement we are talking about here is the nature of the beast, pun intended. That “zig zag” is our “stomp”. Sure, any footwork can be an evasion. But I study lung ying because it “goes in and fights”. If I wanted to play around with an opponent, I’d still be studying long fist.

“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi

12

melt dawn

i know what zig zag foot work is for, but you can delect and strike without zig zagging. using 3 body shapes, instead of going off angles.

hey! i teach zig zag stepping and mater of fact i did we practised last night. it all works…

can you zig zag at close range? :smiley:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

13

Meltdawn

You mentioned the angles deflect redirect etc but I’m curious as to how your stances relate to angles.“Any footwork can be an evasion” true but how do you use the zig zaging going in?

14

By all means, my opinions are my own, and hopefully will change and grow with the more knowledge I gain. The reason that I referred to the “zigzag” was because of it’s outwardly obvious mechanics. If one studies and practices this small bit of kung fu, it will help everything. Maybe I’d be better of likening it to bak mei’s 9 step? I don’t know.

FT:
“but you can delect and strike without zig zagging.”
Uh, of course… what do you want me to say here? There isn’t ONE way of footwork, or ONE way of punching, or ONE method of power transmission…

" using 3 body shapes, instead of going off angles"
3 body shapes? Wouldn’t that neccessitate an angle in there somewhere?

“can you zig zag at close range?”
Nice bait.

Bui Ji:
“I’m curious as to how your stances relate to angles.”
I think we may be straying from the “angles” meaning. It doesn’t have to mean that every time lung ying attacks you it comes in from an angle of footwork. Angles are everywhere. Even hidden in minds. I seem to recall having read that you studied some dragon…

"how do you use the zig zaging going in? "
Didn’t you learn anything in class last night? :slight_smile:

“Waiting is bad.” - Musashi

15

meltdawn

i think at the end of all this, stances are fun and have many applications. it may vary from teacher to teacher these are my thoughts.

i have never done dragon, but have been around long enough and talked enough with some respected sifu’s of this style. at the end of the day as long as you can fight with your stances that is the main thing.

can you zig zag at close range :slight_smile:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

16

Meltdawn

You sound abit annoyed by my question , believe me it wasn’t my intention.
My question was about angles used with stances, you mentioned deflection etc but nothing of off balancing with those angles. I never assumed lung ying only ever comes from the angles.
I’m not talking about just angles but the stances itself for off balancing not only evasion.
Yeh I learn something every day why?

17

Thanks Daniel, well put post yourself. Probably the most important line being:

“Make it work for you, but do not give up the things that make the style what it is”

Much ignored this type of thought, people are often too consumed by intricacies which do not make the style what it is, IMHO and all of the teachers I have ever had.

Meltdawn:-
“The hunch the Lam family exhibits, IMHO, is conformational, not a method to/result of the style.”

I agree completely, in fact I have never seen any actual Lung Ying teachers/students with the 'hunch.

Meltdawn:-
“Someone described sarm tone from a teacher
whom also taught bak mei, and there were no corner to corner” moves as in mine."

Quite so, in none of the versions of Sam Tong that I know are there diagonal moves.

Meltdawn:-
“Elbow protects ribs / Elbows outward. I would think it would be a similarity, not a difference.”

Again I agree.

Meltdawn:-
“Right side for. / Left side for. Hmmm. I don’t know enough yet. I think lung ying makes equal
use of both sides.”

Mine (Lung Ying) is definitely more left stance orientated.

Mantis108:-
“Mobility wise, Lung Ying has more of a Zig Zag pattern which makes it both circular and angular at the same time. Not to meet force with force is always stressed. Bak Mei, on the other hand, uses TTFC more even in counting incoming strikes instead of using using footwork to disolve it first. With that in mind, a more linear and rootedness in stance isn’t a problem. The argument here would be which one spend more Chi? We have to keep in mind that TTFC to issue Ging does spend more Chi. Lung Ying is very concious about preserving Chi and therefore the fighter. We can see that in the Right forward vs Left side forward.”

With respect this entire statement makes no sense to me considering what the Lung Ying I study is like, hence the previous comments about teachers. For instance rootedness in stance is absolutley important according to my LY teacher.
So what does this mean? Now theres a ball of contention.

Mantis108:-
“The fists and the soft/crisp are again about preserve life (the opponents as well). Lung Ying believes in fight if you absolutely have to. Bak Mei fights on occassions to uphold the honor of the style.”

Sorry but this makes no sense to me either. Please explain. Are you talking here of self defence or about athletic contest?

Mantis108:-
“Stomping is more a Sifu thing and a showy thing. Most of the time, both styles don’t exhibit that in fighting.”

Again when you say “fighting” please qualify. It is important.

Fiercest Tiger:-
“at the end of the day as long as you can fight with your stances that is the main thing.”

Wise words.

Biu Ji:-
“My question was about angles used with stances, you mentioned deflection etc but nothing of off balancing with those angles.”

Aah, Siep Sau :slight_smile:

Mark S

18

mark

seip sau do you have seip kuil as well. we have a drill with these with the zig zag step.

anyways nice post and good choice of technique :smiley:

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

19

I am i wrong in assuming Lung Ying doesn’t use the TTFC concept?

Meltdawn-
Lum Wun Quan is not a big man like his father; he is probably less than 5’5.

20

FT:-
“do you have seip kuil as well”

I’m not sure! The chinese terms are not used a lot where I train, please describe!

“we have a drill with these with the zig zag step.”

We certainly do Siep Sau as a stepping drill, and i suppose it could be described as a zig zag step. As a matter of fact I was drilling this with an opponent just last night.

“anyways nice post and good choice of technique”

Ta

Mark S