I’m not sure what video - could you PM or post it on my wall and I’ll respond there. I didn’t want to participate because it was flaming in the other thread.
There wasn’t anyone trying to actually define what terms they were using. Some were clearly using “NeiJia” terms for “Internal” and not actually discussing “NeiGong” or Internal Practice Methods.
.. So I figured it would be a good time to actually post on the two “Internal” terms that are tripping so many people up.
My post didn’t really contain much insight, but it more so from a foundational level of Chinese than it is from being an experienced practitioner.[/QUOTE]
Hi Mathew,
This is the link from the other thread:
As you know, it’s difficult sometimes to understand where someone is coming from just from words. I figure videos like that are good guides to where someone is coming from, either in their support or opposition to them.
However, I see where you’re coming from: you’re making a distinction between Chinese terms. I didn’t know that the terms had those different meanings - so thanks. At least to me, that was a useful post.
I wasn’t explicit enough in my post on this point (I will add a summary to the post).
The term NeiJia is not “Internal” term that most are using from what I can tell.
It is NeiGong/WaiGong.
That is - “Internal Skill/Practice” and includes a wide range of specific practice methods among various styles and practices in China (martial arts, to healing, to buddhist/taoist practices, etc.)
More important to note is that many different arts contain some sort of Nei Gong that have different titles. In Shaolin ChanWuYi - the term NeiYangGong is a widearching term for various health giving NeiGongs. There are simple breathing neigongs, moving, seated, laying etc.
In one XinYi branch I saw they use the term “DanTianGong” for something similar as well,
so terminology may vary… but NeiGong, being a different term from NeiJia, does refer to actual practice methods.[/QUOTE]
Hi, it’s a good thing that you mentioned the difference between them. The problem is that many of the members have mixed their definitions. They mean neigong but when they say “the internal guys” they refer to taiji,bagua,… people.
I have many friends who trains Nei Gong but they can’t care lese about combat. I assume the “internal” that we are talking about in this forum has to do with combat. If we can separate combat away from health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace, there will be less confusion in our discussion.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1226845]I have many friends who trains Nei Gong but they can’t care lese about combat. I assume the “internal” that we are talking about in this forum has to do with combat. If we can separate combat away from health, performance, self-cultivation, and inner peace, there will be less confusion in our discussion.[/QUOTE]
Refusing to train combat and focusing on health and neigong is very common but it doesn’t mean that those who train for combat should refuse to train neigong as well and personally I think that the most remarkable thing in TCMA especially is the neijia is the integration of both. Neigong is about improving the Qi flow which can improve the internal organs for health and open the body so that you can transfer the power faster for combat. This openness can give you the pengjin and also the ability to move without losing it which are the prerequisites for any meaningful taiji combat training. Neigong includes both and and since the neijia arts were designed based on daoyin if you practice their moves you are already practicing which is why many practitioners develop Qi sensations naturally without needing to think about the Qi stuff. Whether or not a combat oriented martial arts practitioner needs to do more than that and develop deeper sensations by training is really a personal choice and depends on the teacher as well the student but probably it’s not that necessary.
Neigong and Waigong are two relative and inseprable terms describing our every action and in combat work together from the most internal layer to the most external level in this order: 1-Heart: Your instinct tells you that you are in danger and it’s time to punch 2- Awareness: Through training you have gained full awareness over your body and know how to do a fast and powerful punch and you also have a good awareness of your opponent and know how to use the best angle 3- Qi: In order to generate a fast and powerful punch your meridians should have been opened. 4-Li: In order to generate a fast and powerful punch you should have strong muscles And your muscles need to coordinate your joints to make it actually happen
There is no way to separate some of theses steps from each other but it’s possible to focus more on one of them. I think what people mean by neigong is the exercises focusing on the third step but in my opinion actual fighting and sparring work on even more internal aspects which are the instinct and awareness of the fighter. I think it’s logical that in TCMA we usually start from half of step 2 ,step 3 and 4 because uncontrolled instinct is difficult to work with and we should be aware of our own body before being aware of others, however after relative proficiency we should immediately add combat because instinct and being aware of the opponent are even more internal.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1226846]Refusing to train combat and focusing on health and neigong is very common but it doesn’t mean that those who train for combat should refuse to train neigong as well [/QUOTE]
It may be even more directly related to “Combat” ability than eating well and behaving well - as it lies at the core of any external/physical movement of the body.
Last time when I was in " (Beijing Sport University)", I had a discussion with the Chinese Olympic Judo and wrestling team coach on this subject “Can Neigon be able to help in their training?” The coach told me that he couldn’t see any advantage to ask his team members to train Neigon (there are a lot of Neigon teachers available in China).
I’m not sure whether Neigon can be helpful in boxing, TKD, running, jumping, …, and other Olympic sports.
I’m sure the Chinese government would get all the Neigon instructors in China inorder to help them to obtain more Olympic gold metals. If they don’t take that path, what does that tell us?
These athletes train their li very hard get their medals, expire in a few years and usually go back home with lots of permanent injuries. I’d say their objectives are very different.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1226946]These athletes train their li very hard get their medals, expire in a few years and usually go back home with lots of permanent injuries. I’d say their objectives are very different.[/QUOTE]
modern training that relies on steroid abuse is bad for your body. internal coward trainnig is bad for your spirit.
modern “sports science” is yang corruption. internal “cultivation” is yin corruption.
There is no prove that people who trains “static” Neigon can be more healthy. My teacher told me that one of his friends who trained Neigon all his life ended with paralized from the waist down.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1226959]There is no prove that people who trains “static” Neigon can be more healthy. My teacher told me that one of his friends who trained Neigon all his life ended with paralized from the waist down.
I don’t know about that but as far as dong gong goes, I have seen many XYLH practitioners aging between 80~104 and most of them can still move and even fight well.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1226964]I don’t know about that but as far as dong gong goes, I have seen many XYLH practitioners aging between 80~104 and most of them can still move and even fight well.[/QUOTE]
Old Chinese saying said, “If you train Tan Tui 10 times daily, water (cold) and fire (heat) won’t be able to bother you any more. If you train Tan Tui 20 times daily, you should be able to reach immortality.”
As long as you can keep yourself “Dong”, you should be able to live through your old age. We can’t use “internal” as execuse for “not moving”.
No doubt that moving is better but l wouldn’t say that jinggong doesn’t have any benefits. Usually in both XYLH and Chen there is very little emphasis on standing postures but in my own experience standing can teach you sinking into the kua and pengjin(or much faster than doing the form and after learning that we can start moving without losing that feeling. That’s why for a period of time I tried it and got good results. Now I don’t spend much time on standing as I think at this point moving is more important in my training. So IMHO what is good or bad really depends on different circumstances and things that are important at some point might not be as important at another time.
[QUOTE=xinyidizi;1226971]No doubt that moving is better but l wouldn’t say that jinggong doesn’t have any benefits. Usually in both XYLH and Chen there is very little emphasis on standing postures but in my own experience standing can teach you sinking into the kua and penguin(or much faster than doing the form and after learning that we can start moving without losing that feeling. That’s why for a period of time I tried it and got good results. Now I don’t spend much time on standing as I think at this point moving is more important in my training. So IMHO what is good or bad really depends on different circumstances and things that are important at some point might not be as important at another time.[/QUOTE]
I do posture training all the time. It can “enhance” my combat skill but it’s not combat skill by itself. http://imageshack.us/a/img408/8945/13taibu.jpg
When people spend most of their time in posture training, they just got their priority wrong. To be able to knock/throw your opponent down ASAP should be the highest priority in TCMA training.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1226943]
I’m sure the Chinese government would get all the Neigon instructors in China inorder to help them to obtain more Olympic gold metals. If they don’t take that path, what does that tell us?[/QUOTE]
They’re using Tai Chi for this to some extent. I remember seeing some short documentary that included one of their female TKD olympians who said her biggest secret was Tai Chi precisely.
Although I don’t know the quality or depth of instruction - and I certainly don’t know what Nei Gong / internal principles are taught by various tai chi teachers - and I’m not equating general “Tai Chi” with “Nei Gong” although some Nei Gong principles may be taught passively or directly through Tai Chi teachers.
