[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1150746]You are correc..Also back in the day WC information was almost impossible to get. If you got it it was a long acd costly road.[/QUOTE]
its a new day…thanks be yah
best stuff ?
This reminds me of a time I was asked to show the most advanced stuff.
I threw a straight punch, which he didnt understand..
his loss:)
20-30 years ago you had the TWC/LT wars. The internet wasn’t around then, though we were blessed with the Draheim/Mazza incident more recently. No shortage of claims about who had the best stuff and who did not back then.
A bit later we had the HFY flamage, in which IMNSHO Benny Meng rather than Garrett Gee was the major agent provocateur. Lots of claims were made but little evidence on video or via fights came to light. Lots of heat, little light.
In recent times it seems that the CSLWC guys (mainly Terence rather than Alan Orr) and Bayer guys are the main ones posting clips and making claims. I see no holding back of best stuff by either camp, rather sometimes inflated claims as to the extreme bada$$ery being shown on said clips. At least Alan has had demonstrable success in MMA, which is not to say that the Bayer stuff is bad because he hasn’t or doesn’t claim to.
Personally, I think this forum is fairly civilised compared to say the VTAA forum, but a lot worse than, say, the Underground forum on MMA.TV. If anyone takes the insults, threats, or intimidation (seriously? LOL) here to heart they need to find an institution because life in the real world will be too much for them.
Youtube is full of first class BJJ instruction. no one holds much back. That seems to be more of a TMA thing. If you look at, say, Cobrinha’s instructionals, you think some of the techniques shown are ridiculously complicated and no one could ever pull them off for real. But then he has a clip of himself pulling the exact technique off in the finals of the Mundials or similar, and he has proven his point.
Holding stuff back is ultimately a futile exercise. Put it out there, invite people to counter it, make it harder to counter or develop counters to their counters.
Wing Chun is not neurosurgery or quantum mechanics. It does not require geniuses, though they might help. It would be good if it relied more on empirical investigation rather than the swallowing and regurgitation of dogma. Many fighting arts, BJJ included IMO, have complexity and subtleties way beyond those in WC (and even beyond some of the more arcane and grandiose claims made by some).
And the claims of secret knowledge are to a large degree what has led WC to be regarded as worthy of ridicule by many, inside and out of the art.
Andrew is absolutely right on this. Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.
All the “moves” in judo, bjj and boxing are “known”. Doesn’t make anyone more or less vunlerable. It is down to the own individual’s training: strength, speed, stamina, technique, etc.
[QUOTE=CFT;1151176]Andrew is absolutely right on this. Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.
All the “moves” in judo, bjj and boxing are “known”. Doesn’t make anyone more or less vunlerable. It is down to the own individual’s training: strength, speed, stamina, technique, etc.[/QUOTE]
i agree…the skill, strength and power you hold dictates the out come of your fight!
one of my old teachers once said:
The secret stuff is rubbish. If you dont train it regularly against resisting opponents its useless, and if you do its no secret
[QUOTE=CFT;1151176]Andrew is absolutely right on this. Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.
All the “moves” in judo, bjj and boxing are “known”. Doesn’t make anyone more or less vunlerable. It is down to the own individual’s training: strength, speed, stamina, technique, etc.[/QUOTE]
Agreed Spencer but a big difference is that the arts quoted don’t just talk about what they do on forums, they are all sport based and so actively compete with each other so their secret moves would only ever be the ones that they didn’t actually use. Happy new year BTW
[QUOTE=jesper;1151226]one of my old teachers once said:
The secret stuff is rubbish. If you dont train it regularly against resisting opponents its useless, and if you do its no secret[/QUOTE]
IMO, the “secret” does exist. If you are not familiar with certain scenerio, it will put you in disadvantage situation.
I still say you write dn good for a jock Andrew . . 
Or should I have written dn well???
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1151232]Agreed Spencer but a big difference is that the arts quoted don’t just talk about what they do on forums, they are all sport based and so actively compete with each other so their secret moves would only ever be the ones that they didn’t actually use. Happy new year BTW[/QUOTE]
As much as I agree with what Chee wrote, and Andrew, I did not write the text you quoted Ian, or if I did I kept it secret from myself lol!! 
Happy New Year to you and yours and everyone else who is here for the long run… 
[QUOTE=anerlich;1150948]…Many fighting arts, BJJ included IMO, have complexity and subtleties way beyond those in WC (and even beyond some of the more arcane and grandiose claims made by some)…[/QUOTE]
What you say about complexity is quite true. Unlike many arts, good WC has always exemplified simplicity. As for subtlety, I’d say that striving for refinement and subtlety is an endless pursuit in any art. Subtlety however, is not a matter of “secrets”, but rather of skill, experience and insight… ie “hard work”. As for the best stuff, I agree with what Jesper said:
[QUOTE=jesper;1150774]best stuff ?
This reminds me of a time I was asked to show the most advanced stuff.
I threw a straight punch, which he didnt understand..
his loss:)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1151256]What you say about complexity is quite true. Unlike many arts, good WC has always exemplified simplicity. As for subtlety, I’d say that striving for refinement and subtlety is an endless pursuit in any art. Subtlety however, is not a matter of “secrets”, but rather of skill, experience and insight… ie “hard work”. As for the best stuff, I agree with what Jesper said:[/QUOTE]
True, there are no secrets but plenty of hard work. But if the teacher gives you the right “key” it makes your life so much easier and your progress faster.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1151256]What you say about complexity is quite true. Unlike many arts, good WC has always exemplified simplicity. As for subtlety, I’d say that striving for refinement and subtlety is an endless pursuit in any art. Subtlety however, is not a matter of “secrets”, but rather of skill, experience and insight… ie “hard work”. As for the best stuff, I agree with what Jesper said:[/QUOTE]
I agree, except for the “unlike many arts” part.
The height of competence IMO is being able to win using the basics and without tricks.
Roger Gracie exemplifies this in BJJ.
It is dangerous to assume that your chosen art is on its own superior to any other. Maybe you can make it that way - for you - but not without the hard work to which everyone alludes.
IMO, the “secret” does exist. If you are not familiar with certain scenerio, it will put you in disadvantage situation.
Maybe the first couple of times, not after that. Unless you are killing all your opponents in unwitnessed deathmatches.
Hard work does not guarantee anything, proper training in right order will give best results. So you need to find someone that can guide you if you want to reach high level, otherwise you will waste a lot of time getting no ware fast.
Mmmyeah …
These days, competent instruction is not difficult to find in most cities, despite the protests made by rice bowl protectors and glib wannabee gurus.
It’s a lot easier to find competent instruction than it is to follow it, and persevere with the training and sacrifices entailed to achieve success.
And at some stage, you’ve got to stop relying on instructors and take responsibility for your own development to reach your potential.
I still say you write d**n good for a jock Andrew
Thanks Phil. More of a geek than a jock, though, really.
Similar arguments about open vs. proprietary security standards. Open standards means that they are subject to free scrutiny and any bugs get fixed, closed standards almost the opposite. You can all draw the parallels.
Exactly right. The best encryption algorithms are those which are published, and all comers including the world’s best cryptographers invited to try and crack them. Anything that withstands a few years of this without being cracked is an algorithm you can have confidence in.
The opposite, “security through obscurity”, is regarded as the false refuge of clueless amateurs.
I expect most here who work out against resisting opponents here have been confronted with the guy who can get you with simple techniques. Even when you know what he’s going to do and you can see it coming he can still get you with it. That’s the sort of skill I want.
The unnamed instructor who teaches a few initiates who have pledged allegiance to him in a secret location isn’t the guy you want. He won’t have enough experience as a teacher because he doesn’t teach enough.
I’m after the guy who has taught 25000 classes in locations all over the world whose results lots of people rave about. Evidence of repeatable success. And yes, I know such a guy, as do most Australian MAists who have been around for a few years. Though he ain’t the only one.
The Secret is after you learn your chosen martial art system…
Make it work in a fight!
Thats the secret…Making it functional to where you can actually apply the techniques on a live resisting opponent!
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1151359]The Secret is after you learn your chosen martial art system…
Make it work in a fight!
Thats the secret…Making it functional to where you can actually apply the techniques on a live resisting opponent![/QUOTE]
The secret is how to “enhance” your skill. In the striking art, if you can do Fajin and also can hit hard on heavy bag, that should be good enough. In the grappling art, each technique has a special equipment training that can help you to enhance your skill to the maximum. To me, that special training method is “secret”.
For example, to put a Bowling ball in a 1 foot deep hole, and use your foot to scoop it out daily is a “secret” training method.
The following footwork training methods can also be considered as secret.