Well, r.shaolin, great posting!
The trouble is there is more than one Cha Quan, there are various lineages from various sources and time periods that are called Cha Quan. I have at least 4 hard cover books that delinate four completely different Cha Quan styles. They all trace their lineage back to toally different people and they are all different from each other, they do not do the same forms.
I agree that there is one Cha Quan that seems to be post- Tai Tzu, but there is also a Cha Quan that is pre-tai tzu that can easily have been something that Song Tai Tzu might have encountered over the years, especially since many members of the army and also generals were of moslem heritage (they liked the pay and they were proud nationalists).
You have something when you mention Loyang, this city, so very near Shaolin is the real center of Henan Martial arts.
There were Taoist schools there that preserved an important style that during the Yuan Dynasty, Monk Jue Yuan had to fall back on. He reached a stalemate in his experiments with Lohan in Shaolin and Bai Yu Feng sent Jue to study with HIS teacher, who was of the Ma family, an ancient moslem family name. Jue stayed here and learned what he was told was the original internal arts that used to be taught at Shaolin before it was almost destroyed.
Jue stayed in Loyang many many years and went back to Shaolin in his old age and passed down what he learned (which reaches far ahead to Choy Gar eventually once this style moved south) to a few students, who taught many by the Ching dynasty.
Also, bear in mind that Henan Xin Yi Liu Hu also originates in Loyang with the Ma family by the 1600s. (no one so far knows for sure who taught the Ma family Xin Yi, there is no proof who is real teacher was, it was not Cao Jiwu or Ji Long Feng as Xing Yi practioners claimed a hundred years later. No one in Loyang says that Ma learned from either person, only that a wandering Taoist taught him Xin Yi. His Liu Hu style is not the same as the Shaolin style of the same name, his was the local moslem indiginous art, named after their six cornered hats.
So, it is very possible, like you point out, that Sun Tai Tzu forms show commonality with the local Hong Quan forms because Sun Tai Tzu borrowed from the forms most likely to be learned from his youth in Loyang. So, his style comes from folk Hong Quan forms and not vice-versa, a great observation you have there!
thanks!
Fu Yu / Fu Ju (they are two different people, Fu Yu was commisioned to make new “shaolin” temples all over the place).
Fu Ju was the Abbot that in Shandong gathered the 18 masters (all 18 are from Shandong, you know). Fu Ju did this some time after first Song emperor was dead (he died young). He created 245 or so forms during that time. These were preserved in a book, the dozen Kan Jia Forms come from this (these are the forms that are no called Northern Shaolin style by many who do 10 of these 12 forms - the Wing Lam / Chan Kwok, etc schools).
Supposedly he did gather some forms that are Hong Quan. But over time something got lost in knowledge.
There is today the Xiao Hong Quan form that is obviously like the Hong Quan forms from Shandong and Henan areas. But there are two Da Hong Quans now, the one that is really from back then is most like Xiao Hong Quan (and Tai Tzu, but maybe tai Tzu takes from it, not known yet) and it has 4 sections, its a long form.
And, there is the newer Da Hong Quan that is found now that has 3 sections but is not as long and shares almost nothing with Xiao Hong Quan and Tai Tzu Quan.
These two different Da Hong Quans cannot be mixed up, they are different by a lot. Doc from Russbo.com asked the old guys at Shaolin about this and they said this info is correct.
You can read all this discussion at his site in the forum archives under Shaolin Kung Fu.
The militias were a major way that some forms or style more than likely became widespread from Shandong, Shanxi, and Henan provinces.
Shaolin fought against the Red Turbans eventually.
They were taken over by Yuan sympathizers long before, that’s why many were at Shandong “shaolin” base, they developed Tang Lang really during the Song Dynasty and it was used AGAINST Shaolin arts when the need arose during the Yuan.
I heard that the Red Turbans took up Taoism because it was indiginous to China, as opposed to Buddhism. Many started hating Buddhism out of nationalist sentiments during the Yuan.
Many Buddhist temples had become corrupt landlords over the peasants and we allowing gambling and prostitution in the temples, and used the temples tax-free status to get rich from it all.
