Who are kung fu masters who don't hold back in teaching?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Training and Health
1

I am curious to know based on experience of others reading this thread , who in their opinion are kung fu masters who do NOT hold back in their instruction (ie: They want to pass on the sum total of ALL that they learned and don’t take the dreaded (final 10-25%) of what they’ve learned “to the grave”_

In other words..I am looking to the polar opposite of the “carrot dangler”(who forgets at some point that the carrot is half eaten).

I have read Grandmaster Leung Shum of Ying Jow Pai is one individual who is very generous with his information(provided one works hard).

Any others?

Lord knows, there sure are too many of those who fill the bill of dangled carrot with an ever increasingly long held rope.

2

It’s not always about how long you’ve been there, but whether or not you’ve gotten a firm enough grasp on your other material. If you don’t, then why should you get the next piece?

But to the actual question: I don’t know of anyone that does that kind of stuff any more if a student has reached the point where they should be learning that last bit of a teacher’s material. Not that even means anything. The last “10-15%” has never been a bunch of deadly techniques, it’s always just been more of what you already should have been taught.

3

Your carrot is dangling

A more appropriate question is: Who are the students who think they can progress to the next level but don’t even have a grasp of the basics yet?

Answer: 90% of the student body.

:stuck_out_tongue:

4

Pretty much agree with the previous answers here.

As to the question of which masters want to teach everything out, well, that’s probably impossible to answer unless you are a long-time student of that teacher. My CLF sifu will teach openly, [SIZE=4]if[/SIZE] you’re ready for it and have earned the right to learn it. If you’re not ready for something, it’s better not to ask about “When can I learn _____?” Oftentimes some things that people think are held back are things they simply are not at a level to digest and incorporate properly.

The fact is, many typical KF students you will see out there need to concentrate harder on developing solid fundamentals and basic applications, reactions, etc. It’s not dangling a carrot when students who aren’t ready for something are not allowed to learn it yet. Most MA students don’t even stick around long enough.

IME, there are no mysterious secrets that make you better, other than a deeper understanding of the fundamentals and the training and experience necessary to make them work.

Of course, there are ‘carrot danglers’ in CMA. I would have thought in this day and age, that had become obsolete. Then again, I associate very little in the MA world anymore.

5

Greetings,

It is the desperate need to be on the inside track to get “the knowledge” that helps set up those mckwoons and mcdojos, creating the potential for cycles of abuse similar to those abuse situations we see coming out of Hollywood. Hard work/discipline/acquired polished technique is very much the true definition of kung fu. People, pretty much, bypass the meaning altogether.

The world of “instant teatty” still exists.

mickey

6

More,

For you to know whether a person is holding back or not, you would have to know the full curriculum to begin with.

mickey

7

Thank you all for your fine commentary :slight_smile:

While there are good and true lessons to be learned and deep philosophical insights to be gained in your answers…

Only Jimbo it seems gave me an answer consistent with the question.

We ALL know students who want to learn the most advanced techniques of a style or system after the first lesson(or for the uber impatient..within the FIRST lesson)..in other words..those who find “the basics” to be a bore and a waste of time.

And we all have either met, interacted and (yes) in some cases..trained with the carrot danglers.

To reiterate..I’m NOT asking “Who is a charlatan and/or carrot dangler”:

I am asking..which sifus/masters have THE OPPOSITE approach to the dangler?(in other words..who wants to teach everything they know?)

Thanks.

Good wishes,
LTN

8

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1305646]who wants to teach everything they know?[/QUOTE]
In my 8/13/2017 workshop, within 3 hours, I had taught 52 different techniques. My concern is not whether I want to teach everything I know. My concern is whether my students can learn as fast as I can teach them.

1st Side:

(Yao) Bite (45 degree downward)

  1. Leading arm push upper arm shin bite

(Jian) - Foot picking (horizontal)

  1. Leading arm push upper arm foot picking

(Zhan) - Sticking kick (vertical up)

  1. Hopping sticking kick (vertical)

(Cuo) Scooping kick (45 degree up)

  1. Back arm, leading leg scooping kick
  2. Leading arm, back leg scooping kick
  3. Single neck tie body twist scooping kick
  4. Single neck tie scooping kick, break

(Ti) Kick (behind the heel, in front of instep)

  1. Shoulder pulling kick push/pull, counter itself
  2. Sleeve push/pull kick sleeve hold, or upper arm hold
  3. Foot landing kick
  4. Horizontal throw, heel kick back belt right sprint, right kick
  5. Neck arm kick collar/sleeve, twist/counter twist, single neck tie
  6. Neck mopping kick- spin, wheeling step
  7. Elbow locking kick counter itself
  8. Arm pulling, leading leg blocking kick
  9. Reverse head lock kick
  10. Front waist lifting kick
  11. Head leaning knee seize kick left knee seize, right kick
  12. 3 points step kick head lock, or under hook right back spring, right kick
  13. Scoop kick mirror stance, right scoop, left kick, collar/sleeve
  14. Back spring kick right back spring, left kick
  15. Side spring kick left side spring, right kick
  16. Horizontal throw, inner edge kick back belt horizontal throw, left kick

(Zhuang) - Trunk hitting

(Kao) Shoulder strike

  1. Shoulder push bench sitting advance squeeze
  2. Shoulder push knee push advance squeeze
  3. Leg lift waist control flip
  4. Leading leg pull, back leg shoulder strike

4th Side:

(Bie) Break (both feet on the ground), (Liao) - Back kick (single leg standing),

  1. Head lock stealing step break uniform stance
  2. Head lock cover step break mirror stance
  3. Under hook break - offense
  4. Under hook break - counter for head lock
  5. Over hook break
  6. Hip throw break
  7. Back waist lift break
  8. Front waist lift break
  9. Side door stealing step break
  10. Bowing break stealing step, or cover step
  11. Scoop break scoop left leg, break right leg
  12. Leg twist, leg break
  13. Leg lift, leg break
  14. Jumping break pin arm on chest, foot stomping, jump in, head lock
  15. Reverse head lock break
  16. Knee pressing break counter for single leg
  17. Linear hand break
  18. Circular hand break
  19. Hand leg break
  20. Fancy break hold left leg, break right leg

(Kou) - Knee seizing

  1. Arm drag knee seize
  2. Knee strike knee seize
  3. Shoulder strike knee seize

(Qie) Cut

  1. Footwork
  2. Neck push front cut
  3. Neck press diagonal cut
  4. Uniform stance head lock cut
  5. Mirror stance head lock cut

(Xiao) - Sickle hooking

  1. Shoulder push sickle hooking
  2. Waist wrapping neck pushing sickle hooking
9

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1305590]A more appropriate question is: Who are the students who think they can progress to the next level but don’t even have a grasp of the basics yet?

Answer: 90% of the student body.

:p[/QUOTE]

I find this to be true in almost any endeavour. We are weird creatures in that regard as well.

10

john whens ur next seminar plz i wanna come plz plz

11

Yep. I have met kung fu master that does not hold back in teaching disregard whether his student can learn it. Because he does not want to be perceived as holding back teaching.

Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

12

I’m not sure anybody can hold back information, or more likely - if they claim they’re holding back information they’re probably lying, or they’re just not that skilled. After doing martial arts for a couple of decades - you realize that there’s not much variation between the different styles. Really there’s only proclivities between the various historical masters. Sometimes that leads to stagnation because modern masters and students can become afraid to experiment… or experimentation is looked down upon. The only holding back that seems to happen is that some masters are rigid and don’t allow flexibility with their students. This can take different forms but usually it’s a variation of this thought of my style is the best and has all the answers so don’t look outside it and definitely don’t cross train or I’ll throw you out and I have all the answers.

I have this theory that there really are only a few martial movements and these are pretty much universal. The movements can be interpreted in nearly infinite ways hence all of this thought of hidden applications or secrets. When one really explores - they become aware of these secrets which aren’t really secrets - they’re just discovered personal proclivities. This happens naturally over time.

To illustrate a more concrete example of this theory: One of my new favorite forms is one that I learned in the third grade from a traditional Okinawan stylist. It’s Naihanchi Shodan. It’s a controversially boring form which most people initially hate and then grow to love. Its genius is that it is a super nebulous and vague form. If you look up the form you’ll find a plethora of masters talking about hidden techniques and meaning found in the form… and everyone seems to have their own take on what those techniques are. Here’s the big secret: They’re all correct. I think the vagueness of the form allows for something unique… which is - after a couple of decades of martial study, if you go back and do that form, you’ll start to see all kinds of shiznit in that form because it’s like a living rorschach. You find techniques that you want to find based on your own proclivities.

If I’m correct, how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets.

13

“Yep. I have met kung fu master that does not hold back in teaching disregard whether his student can learn it. Because he does not want to be perceived as holding back teaching.”

SteveLau. Thank you. May I ask their name? Who is this man or woman?

"If I’m correct, how can any master keep anything secret? Especially if a student is earnest and puts in the time because they should discover their own secrets. "

It’s SIMPLE! Said sifu/master/Grandmaster says to themselves “Well..I need a comprehensive retirement plan. Student A has been with me for 20 years. Trained hard..very, very hard too! Still not a sifu yet. He’s only learned 30% my material. (sadistic laugh to self). I reckon I can lead him down the primrose path for another 20 years and then when he says “Well, sifu..can I test for sifu status now?”, I will invent an excuse to declare him/her insolent and threaten to kick them out of the school. I will be in my mid 80s then..and even if he’s learned 60 % of material..look at all of the money I’ve gotten!”

14

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1305874]
It’s SIMPLE! Said sifu/master/Grandmaster says to themselves “Well..I need a comprehensive retirement plan. Student A has been with me for 20 years. Trained hard..very, very hard too! Still not a sifu yet. He’s only learned 30% my material. (sadistic laugh to self). I reckon I can lead him down the primrose path for another 20 years and then when he says “Well, sifu..can I test for sifu status now?”, I will invent an excuse to declare him/her insolent and threaten to kick them out of the school. I will be in my mid 80s then..and even if he’s learned 60 % of material..look at all of the money I’ve gotten!”[/QUOTE]

You seem pretty bitter, man. Did someone kick you out for being impatient? Again, maybe you just kind of sucked at your basic material and said teacher didn’t feel you were ready for more.

15

[QUOTE=MightyB;1305840] It’s a controversially boring form which most people initially hate and then grow to love. Its genius is that it is a super nebulous and vague form. If you look up the form you’ll find a plethora of masters talking about hidden techniques and meaning found in the form… and everyone seems to have their own take on what those techniques are. Here’s the big secret: They’re all correct. I think the vagueness of the form allows for something unique… which is - after a couple of decades of martial study, if you go back and do that form, you’ll start to see all kinds of shiznit in that form because it’s like a living rorschach. You find techniques that you want to find based on your own proclivities. [/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%

16

“You seem pretty bitter, man. Did someone kick you out for being impatient? Again, maybe you just kind of sucked at your basic material and said teacher didn’t feel you were ready for more”

Nope!!! (on both counts). Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are “worth their salt” vs. those who are uh…questionable! :o

17

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1305887]Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are “worth their salt” vs. those who are uh…questionable! :o[/QUOTE]

I’m enjoying this thread as it is, but would just like to add something. A teacher who “holds back” or is perceived as holding back can still be “worth his/her salt” IMO. Whether a teacher is good or questionable does not correlate with being perceived as “holding back” or not. 2¢

18

[QUOTE=LaterthanNever;1305887]
Nope!!! (on both counts). Rather, I am trying to ferret out those who are masters who are “worth their salt” vs. those who are uh…questionable! :o[/QUOTE]

Well, it’s considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online. So instead, if you want to know if someone’s worth their salt, watch them move. There are enough examples of people who were or are at the top of their game on the youtubes nowadays which should give you good idea of what balance, power, grace, and fajing should look like. There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes.

Go in person to a class and watch the person in question move.

19

[QUOTE=MightyB;1305900]Well, it’s considered to be in bad taste to name people, good or bad, online. So instead, if you want to know if someone’s worth their salt, watch them move. There are enough examples of people who were or are at the top of their game on the youtubes nowadays which should give you good idea of what balance, power, grace, and fajing should look like. There are also a **** ton of examples of bad kung fu on the tubes.

Go in person to a class and watch the person in question move.[/QUOTE]

Good advice.

However, I’d like to add that sometimes how good a teacher’s skills are and how well he moves isn’t always a good indicator of how good a teacher he is.

I knew a certain teacher in Taiwan (not my teacher) whose kung fu was at a very high level; in addition, he was always willing to spar anyone, at any time, something I’d never seen any other established teacher there do. I sparred him several times, and can attest to the fact that he was very good. At that time, he was about in his early 50s, and even then, he had the fastest kick I’d ever seen. He taught a rare lineage of Hung Gar. My second Northern Mantis teacher in Taiwan was a student of his. This HG teacher’s kung/gong, his speed, power, technique, and his form were impeccable.

AFAIK, there were only 3 students of this HG teacher who received ‘the real stuff’, my own Mantis teacher being the last and youngest. These three students also had a high level of natural talent for MA. All his other students that I saw or knew of (and he had taught a LOT of students over the years) were literally awful. Simply put, he didn’t care about these other students; he took their money and gave them a bunch of forms that he taught them half-@ssed and wrong. This HG teacher also had character issues, but I won’t go into that here.

So if I could add any advice, I would say that, if possible, observe the overall quality level of a teacher’s students. Of course, virtually every school will have their better and lesser-skilled students. But try to determine the overall levels of the school. Do the students seem good for the levels they’re at? How are the advanced and intermediate-level students? Are the beginners developing good fundamentals, and do the intermediate and advanced students seem to know what they’re doing beyond just doing good forms? Because the teacher himself may be good, but that in itself may not be an indicator that he is able or willing to pass it down to others. If a teacher has only a very small group, then this should be even easier to determine.

Oddly enough, a friend of mine (who had already been a CMA teacher himself for many years) once told me he left a certain large BJJ school because the teacher held back and only shared the fine points with students who were also from Brazil. He compared it to the way some older Chinese sifu only taught the ‘real’ stuff to Chinese students. This friend ended up switching to another BJJ school where that wasn’t an issue.

20

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1305902]So if I could add any advice, I would say that, if possible, observe the overall quality level of a teacher’s students. Of course, virtually every school will have their better and lesser-skilled students. But try to determine the overall levels of the school. Do the students seem good for the levels they’re at? How are the advanced and intermediate-level students? Are the beginners developing good fundamentals, and do the intermediate and advanced students seem to know what they’re doing beyond just doing good forms? Because the teacher himself may be good, but that in itself may not be an indicator that he is able or willing to pass it down to others. If a teacher has only a very small group, then this should be even easier to determine.
[/QUOTE]

This is gold. You’re right - but also, you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of sh**y students (no athletic ability, lack of attention span, no tolerance for pain, etc.), so it’s hard to tell.