White Crane & Okinawan Karate

Hi,

I’m new to this forum and already I can see many wonderful and interesting discussions taking place!

On 02-16-001, Rogue wrote “Is Shaolin White Crane the same as White Crane?”

In reply, MoQ from the US West Coast said <“I don’t know what this stuff has to do with Karate… If there were Okinawans trained by Shil Lum monks or Fukien White Crane masters or whatever, they learned basics and what they could and then did it their own way and now the only significant relationship is the lipservice.>”

I am sorry but I have to disagree with this statement. As a martial arts instructor of some 30+ years experience and a martial arts researcher studying the ramifications of that phenomenon in it’s anthropological context, I can state that the evidence for the influence of Chinese He-Quanfa upon that of the native Uchinan/Okinawan martial forms has been more than just “lipservice1”

Sadly, commercial explotation has necessitated a myriad of eclectic interpretations and along with this “progress” the very essence upon which these fighting traditions rest, has either vanished or been compromised.

Historically, Fujian has always been regarded as the “mecca” where all Uchinanchu (Okinawans) had to go to receive proper instruction in Chinese Quanfa. Apart from the famous Okinawan Kojo (Cai) family, I personally know of other ‘style’s’ in Okinawa, which perpetuate a reasonably pure Fujian-based Crane-Fist tradition.

This ‘personal’ view includes acknowledging that Matayoshi Shinpo’s school represents his personal interpretation of Gokenki’s (Wu Xiangui 1886-1940)Kingainoon style taught to him and represents his personal interpretation of Gokenki’s Kingainoon.

I have learnt several Okinawan White Crane-Fist forms while in Nagata, Naha-shi, Okinawa which clearly reflect a very strong and time-honoured link to that of Chinese Crane-Fist Boxing. So much so that they (the forms Kata/Hsing) are almost identical to their Chinese counterparts!

One must also consider the primary vehicle via which such cultural and martial traditions wer and continue to be passed on. This vehicle is Kata/Hsing/Forms noy t hjust a few “basics” as
MoQ has mistakenly written.

Regards,

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Thanks for the post Ron!

Interesting Ron. Thanks for that. :slight_smile:


Talk softly and carry a big stick.

thank you ron!!!

thanks ron --oossuu!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>
Sadly, commercial explotation has necessitated a myriad of eclectic interpretations and along with this “progress” the very essence upon which these fighting traditions rest, has either vanished or been compromised.
[/quote]

Um…that’s exactly what MoQ said… “NOW the only signifigant relationship is the lipservice.”

I have no doubt that Okinawans learned some forms, but what forms, training forms, fighting forms, how many and which???

You do not mention the Bak Hok Chi Gung anywhere in your post…if this tradition has not been passed down in the Okinawan lineages than I would have to agree that they probably didn’t learn as much from the Chinese as some would like to believe they did. I know a lot of people want to claim a link to antiquity and a monastic origin to what it is they’re studying but all of the Okinawan stuff I’ve seen looks in no way like Fukien White Crane.
Yes, I am sure that there are a small handful of Okinawan lineages/schools that possess a large quantity of Fukien material…but in your post, you only cite two as examples…are these the only schools you’ve found in your 30+ years of research? The simple fact of the matter is that as rare as authentic Southern White Crane is in the west, an authentic Okinawan “version” of the same is probably even rarer.
Also, when you say that the forms you learned are almost identical to their Chinese counterparts…what are you basing this on? What is your experience with authentic Bak Hok to place these systems in a comparative context? Are they identical only in a mechanical sense, or are they identical both externally AND internally?

Let me add this…

Ron,
In reading your post, there seems to be the assumption that because Okinawans have forms, that they learned more than mere basics, as if forms and basics are mutually exclusive. Many people in Gung Fu start learning forms on day one, it’s still basics. They may have learned a half dozen forms, doesn’t mean it wasn’t all basic material.
Here’s what needs to be done, from an academic standpoint. If one wants to try and quantify just how much Fukien Bak Hok is contained within a particular Okinawan lineage, you would need to find someone very advanced in the Chinese system, someone who knows the advanced hand and weapons forms, the 2 person forms, the chi gung, the herbology, etc, etc…make an itemized list of what would be considered “advanced” material, and then see if you can find anyone in the Okinawan community that teaches the same material with the same mindset/intention, etc.
Good luck.
My experience with Okinawan martial systems is nowhere near as great as your own, but I’ve never seen anything even close. And, as you yourself say, over the passing of time, great differences do arise, this is how separate systems are created. Many, many distinct Chinese systems have a common ancestor in the distant past, but their similarities often times end there.

Correct me if I’m wrong Ron but…

I don’t believe that Ron was saying that they’re identical but similar, the Okinawans like the Chinese took what they learned and adapted it to themselves.

It facinates that many CMA can’t accept the compliment that the Okinawans give them by the homage they pay to White Crane and Shoalin.

His exact words were “almost identical”, you interpret how you wish…
An homage is fine, but more often than not it is the co-opting of a name.
One would almost get the sense that there is a certain amount of insecurity at play in the Karate camp, what with all the repeated attempts to force a link to Chinese Kung Fu, regardless of how shaky that connection maybe…
More often than not there is a “cheapening” (if you will) of Kung Fu that takes place to make the pieces fit together…read the original post again, he SEEMS to be saying that because there are some Okinawan Katas that are “almost identical” to Fukien Bak Hok, that there is some clear cut established lineage. I would like Ron to quantify to just what extent he feels these systems are similar. He says that it’s more than lipservice, but mentions nothing conclusive beyond a few hand forms…will someone please answer my original questions?
Where is the Chi Gung?
Where are the weapons sets?
Where are the 2 person sets?
Where are the herbs?
I am not saying these things do not exist, merely that I’ve never seen them. If all you have are a few hand forms, man, I don’t want to destroy any fantasies, but, that’s not enough to suggest that Okinawan Karate is merely an “offshoot” of White Crane…no, it’s something else entirely, and why does no one in the Karate camp seem willing to accept that?

Let Us Hear Ya View then???

Billy Pilgrim,

If you do not think that Okinawa Karate is related to Fukien martial arts, then may I know what is your opinion regarding the origin of Okinawa Karate?
Is it a thing exclusive to Okinawans, meaning they developed it?

Instead of rebutting against others’ claim and sharing, care to share your experience and knowledge with us then? Think this will be a more productive discussion. Don’t ya think so??? :smiley:

You’re right Billy, the CMA have had no influence on any other martial arts. Karateka have just been trying to be humble by tracing their origins back to Fukien. Really karate started over 2,000 years ago in Korea and worked it’s way back to Okinawa through Japan!

Where is the Chi Gung?
Where are the weapons sets?
Where are the 2 person sets?
Where are the herbs?

So if any CMA is missing any of those things I guess that they’re not a CMA?

just my 2 cents

i would suggest to you guys to go read dr Yang’s book, “the essence of shoalin white crane”

it shows some links between the 2

ciao

-specialization is for ants-

Just My Opinion

Karate (Tode/etc.) is just a partial transmition of Chinese martial arts, less than 50% IMHO and I have not seen anyone with any true understanding of the arts principles (martial). Perhaps Ron can prove us wrong now by listing them as preserved by the Okinawan lineage. My understanding is that only the late “Gokenki” had any real substance of Fukien Bok-Hok kuen, and he learn it in China where he was from originally. All who tried to pick his brain :), after his death, came out with some sort of secret white crane form. Its ammusing. By the way Im still waiting to see someone on Okinawa demonstrate the 36 points, let alone 108. I see so many so called Tuite/Kyushu experts demonstrating their knockout points and poor grappling (Chin na), that I fear the uninformed are truly going to buy this **** as the real transmission. If you Ron, who have been teaching for 30 years or so and are still asking questions on other boards, dont know the answers you seek, then how could you claim anything substantial exsists in Okinawa, where you get your knowledge?

Ron, just one more question, to prove the substantial in okinawa, what is Sam Chien (SanChin) really developing? Please dont answer with general terms like: mind, body, spirit or tell me about float, sink, swallow or spit. Southern style boxers on this forum know more about these than any karate practitioner. Whether they give out the information or not. Please approach this with caution.

One other note, few bought the visits by Okinawans like Miyagi, Matayoshi etc as a search for their roots. THEY WHERE SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS THEY DID NOT HAVE!, The same as the so-called modern researchers. By the Way if it doesnt exsists in your system, then learn another but dont call it Traditional Karate.

Chinese Crane/Okinawan Crane (Long)

For those of you who have welcomed me to this forum, I say thank you.

Sadly it seems that others are somewhat defensive of their own arts and views. While in a way this is understandable, it demonstrates a level of insecurity and stylistic bias that is unwarranted in a forum such as this whose aim is to bring people together, not drive them apart.

I was merely expressing a viewpoint. Not attacking any one individual, his or her views or style.

In the history of the martial arts many seem to think that it is more important who one learned from rather than what was actually being taught. The Old-Style teachers imparted their own personal knowledge to help learners develop according to the disciple’s age, individual personality, character, and physical skills.

As such, two from the same school would not learn or do things the same way as each other despite studying under the same master. This is why so many versions of the same kata have been passed down. The standardization of techniques, kata and other practices was never part of old ways or teachings.

As a person and researcher, I (by that of my own personal choice) am no longer connected to any one style or organization.

One thing that I have “discovered’ from my personal research into the Chinese and Okinawan Crane-Fist traditions was that one teacher even within the same style never taught the same thing. Each would teach certain things at different times mainly due to their own needs, age, social climate, knowledge, understanding and trust of the person being taught I have heard some less senior students say “He’s changing things all the time. It’s changed again!”
The simple truth is nothing has changed other then the teacher has introduced a different level of the same form, technique or practice as the student grew in his/her own understanding. The more an instructor matures and grows within his art the more he comes to understand the essence of the art and the more insightful, creative and expressive he’s likely to be in his teaching to others.

My research to this current point in time has led me to find that only a handful of real, classical old style kata have been passed down reasonably intact. What’s more important is to realise that it’s not the actual forms that are important but the original spirit, essence and intent which gave rise to them.

However to answer the issues raised:

In describing Crane-Boxing, Shihequan (Feeding Crane-Fist) Master Lio Chin-Long stated: "We, in Shihequan, are Feeding Crane. Behave like that crane. Eat attacker bit by bit. Eat his eyes, ears, throat. Always move for final kill. Absorb any skills that may help you - because it’s Feeding Crane - the style to which anything can be absorbed, if it serves as means of defence”.

Based primarily upon the teachings of Yabiku Takaya Sensei (Okinawa), Sifu Yap Leong, Feeding Crane-Fist Adviser Shifu Paul Wollos of the Lio Family style (Taiwan) and Ron Goninan’s own personal experiences, Butoryu Tsuruken strives for the essence of Tsuruken (Crane Boxing) via the paragon that is kata. Great emphasis is placed upon two-man drills involving looking in-depth into kata applications that involve life-protection against not only standard techniques but also common acts of everyday violence which plagues our fast-paced society.

It should be observed that there exists several distinctive characteristics and principles which serve to embody Hakutsuruken (White Crane-Fist) as taught within China’s Middle Kingdom and the Ryukyu Island’s of Okinawa.

The hourglass-like “Battle Kamae”, ghost-like step and slide like body shifting motions unrelenting in their forward motions, centred and energy-filled postures, scattered hitting (Shan Da), point striking (Dian Xue), the method of intercepting energy and grappling/seizing/capturing skills (Jieqi Qin-na), bridge-arms which project outward from the centre-line, and techniques in which the practitioner extends the arms like the unfurling of a crane’s wings and one-legged stances are all signature characteristics of Crane-Fist Boxing.

Butoryu Tsuruken basics look very simple and is best taught in the context of one-on-one training known as Tingxun (courtyard training). There are actually very few of them. However, it takes a good deal of practice to achieve a real power in them. Power used in Butoryu © Tsuruken cannot be muscular. All movements are performed with complete relaxation. At the beginning students are required to perform them without any power, in sort of soft, loose movement. This way the “life power” (as opposed to “dead power” of some other Chinese, Japanese and Okinawan martial arts) can be achieved.

There are 5 major basic techniques in Butoryu © Tsuruken. Each is named after the 5 elements of traditional Chinese philosophy:

  1. Jinshou / Metal Hands - performed using strike with the top of the hands and seen in the opening of the forms.

  2. Mushou / Wood Hands - striking with the fingertips.

  3. Shueishou / Water Hands - using outer and forward movement of inner parts of forearms and hands.

  4. Huoshou / Fire Hands - palm strike, similar to Gojuryu’s Mawashi-uke, but differing in it’s finishing aspects.

  5. Tushou / Earth Hands - fists strike.

From here, all other methods and variations are developed and the encouragement of refinement (Li-Jing) is then pursued. The aim being to seek knowledge (Qi-Zhi).

Stances are always in motion, constantly searching the earth for ground-reaction-energy in a manner similar to riding a bicycle … an ever-changing relationship between the Yin and the Yang:-

· Huyepo / Huyao pu - Tiger Waist Stance, similar to karate’s zenkutsu dachi, serving as an entering movement (irimi in Japanese).

· Chitiao liongpo / Yitiao long bu - Single Dragon Stance: a sideways position, it can be triangle stance or horse stance performed sideways; serves to shift body to evade or enter the attack. Often used in connection to the Fan-Pal and Tile Palm Strike of the Nanquan (Southern-Fists) styles.

· Tokapo / Tujiao bu - Singe Leg/Empty Stance: Identical to karate’s neko-ashi-dachi; serving as a “Body-Change” or evasion movement.

· Guniampo / Guniam bu - Girl Stance: same as a Triangle Horse Stance and the Single Dragon Stance but smaller in length. A very effective stance!

Body movements are closely related to stances, movements include forward, backwards, sidewards and angled movements using a step and slide motion, pivoting movements, changing stance from front to side jumping movements as bouncing away from rapidly attacking opponent, and counter-attacking while landing. Butoryu © Tsuruken movements are done fast, with rapid advancement or withdrawal and body-shifting.

In the eyes of the Butoryu © stylist, kicking techniques harkens back to olden times on Okinawa when kicks were kept within arms reach. This perhaps comes from times when older Chinese methods of kicking were used. Snapping low kicks are very effective in their nature, and this method is used to great advantage within the Butoryu © Tsuruken style.

Additionally to forms (Quan / Kata), Butoryu © Tsuruken also uses "pre-forms combinations (Xin). These are just basic techniques performed in series of movements. This system ensures an organised approach to mastery of not only the individual movements, but also the fighting theory (known as “Crane-Thinking” or “Crane-Mind”) and real-world life-protection applications of the form.

All White Crane-Fist forms embody the following “essentials”: Sinking, Swallowing, Floating, Spitting, Lifting, Rebounding, and most importantly of all Softness (“Rou-Jin”) and Listening (“Ting Jin” …. reading the opponents intentions and energy).

Butoryu © Tsuruken contains all the essential qualities and essence of other Crane styles. In order to feed, crane must be able to fly, whoop, and rest. All of which is held within the Butoryu Tsuruken style. Methods of using the Crane’s voice (He Sheng) are also explored (He Ming).

Great emphasis is placed upon establishing a symbiosis of all these concepts within the practitioner so that they are not only a part of the art as the art is a part of them.

We have found that it is impossible to standardise people as they vary from individual to individual, as do the methods by which to instruct them in the ways of the martial arts. Personalities and the interaction they bring with them constantly changes. Therefore the essence and essentials become far more important than the way in which one appears to the casual observer. This is, something that sadly many modern current martial arts practitioners and instructors seem to have forgotten.

We don’t have hundreds and hundreds of kata/hsing (forms). “It is better to plow deep in a small garden than to plow lightly in a large garden, for a better crop will grow in the small garden”. Forms such as Paipuren, Zhang Dou He-Quan, Nipaifu, Neipai-Chen (Er shi ba bu) all are almost entirely identical in form, substance, essence and teaching s to that of the Chinese traditions from which they arose. In brief, the kata we have are those we know internally including the myriad of applications they yield.

Chi-kung (Naika) is an integral aspect of the training.

As for schools on Okinawa that maintain and actively teach Chinese-based aspects related strongly to White Crane … it is not my place or intention to name all as certian people wish to remain unknown. However to name but a few, my own instructor, Mr. Yabiku Takaya of Sikina, Aoyama, Okinawa, Mr. Wong O’gan Pyon of Futenma, Mr. Gakiya, Mr. Nishihira, the Koshiro family etc.

To state that Okinawan arts do not have any real or verifiable link to Chinese Quanfa and Crane-Fist in particular is extremely narrow-minded. The Okinawan’s more so than the Japanese, have always strobgly identified and given recognition to Chinese traditions and arts in a great deal of their own culture, martial arts and lifestyle. One has only to visit Kunida/Kumemura to see this.

If we look to China we can see that such traditions had a far-reaching impact upon the early civil defensive arts of Okinawa and it’s people.Okinawa’s long standing & symbiotic liaison with China is proof of this. I also believe that the concept of applying defensive principles to weapon-usable objects (as seen in Okinawan Karate/Kobudo (quanfa)was heavily Chinese influenced. To ignore outright the unique and profound influence that island culture and Ryukyu anthropology has had upon the evolution of quanfa would be a gross misrepresentation of the obvious. The practice of Okinawan Karate as we know it, unfolded from the various kinds of Quanfa introduced from various places in China (mainly Fujian).

To say that Chinese-based Crane-Fist does not exist on Okinawa is to adopt the all-too-common “Ostrich-Stance” seen within the martial arts world (head in the sand, bum exposed!).

Regards,

:slight_smile:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Posted within the past year on your site

Ron, your rather long cut & paste post contains alot of nice name dropping but now please answer my question on Sam Chien, this is one of the oldest forms found in Okinawa, next to Naihanchin and Seisan. I’m sure a qualified teacher of white crane boxing can answer this, especially since no Fukien Shaolin derived system is without some version of this form. Even Southern Mantis call’s its version Sam Bo Chien.

Also, please dont take offense but in CMA forums people always get more defensive towards non-CMA practioners, especially Karate-ka who constantly remind everyone of the uselessness of flowery movements in CMA. Most people will welcome you after discovering what your INTENTIONS HERE are?
Especially after seeing your site and your"BORG" mentality towards White Crane in the past few years. You dont think we check out non-CMA boards?

Self-Thinking Follower ???

Sir,

Sam Chien : (Dependant on the myriad of variations of this form that exist) The form itself is linked a popular yet unconfirmed story of folklore believes that it was the monk “Bodiharma” who developed the form as a means of training the spiritual recluses residing at the now famous Shaolin Temple. There may be some ‘substance’ within this tale of lore as the form did not embody combative principles until adopted for same by the Shaolin Temple monks. We do know that one version known as Paipuren can be traced to the ancient Daoist (“Way”) priests of China. Paipuren was originally used to charge the body bio-electrically with “Qi” to develop, internalise and expel “Qi” (internal energy). It teaches an unification of the mental, physical and spiritual aspects of man and is sometimes known as the “three wars” or “battles” because of this aspect. On a defensive level, Paipuren uses the techniques of deflection, trapping, seizing, joint-locks, neck breaks, and piercing strikes to pressure points. Like most Southern Chinese Crane-Fist forms Paipuren stress the use of the ‘pidgeon-toed’ stance emphasising stability and resiliency. Regarded as being a “San-nen Kata” (three year kata) meaning it should be practiced every day for three years stating Paipuren “means Ju (soft) suppresses Go (hard0.

In brief, Saamchien teaches about the summation of total joint forces and muscular pliability and the natural laws of motion. It also embodies the core concepts of Sink, Swallow, Float and Sink which lie at the heart of He-Quanfa.

Regarding Naifuanchin and Seishan, Let me ask you a question: please tell me which Chinese martial arts these forms arose from?

I don’t take offence to be questioned by others and in fact respect that of Chinese Martial Arts practitioners as my art has it’s roots in Chinese Martial Arts. In fact, my view is that Chinese Martial Arts are not “flowery” but extremely effective defensive arts.

I do however, take offence to your tone. “Name-dropping”, “Borg mentality” etc. If you don’t like me then simply say so as if you were saying so directly to my face.

I do not know you therefore I cannot really comment on you, your art or yourself as a person one way or the other.

But if I was to base my entire opinion or view of you based upon the “Welcome” you have extended to me here then it would not be in the positive.

But then again, as stated, I do not know you so I will reserve and keep my views and opinions to myself.

It was not my intention to assert my “knowledge” (which is relative to the individual) on you or anyone else.

This was simply to start an interesting, non-offensive discussion with other like-minded people. I have no intentions of entering into a pointless “flame-war” with you or anyone else.

If you do not respect my view that’s fine. that is your right. but please do so with some honour and decorum instead of name-calling and negativity.

Regards

:wink:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Lineage

Lineage:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Okinawan White Crane

The following are just a few who were influnced by Fukien He-Quanfa:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Okinawan White Crane

The Attached image shows Yabiku Takaya Sensei applying the Crane Opens Wings to Ron Goninan from the Kokuokakuken form. The technique shown on this photo is Gimchiu - a variation of Metal Hands, performed larger. The vibration must be developed in order to perform larger or smaller techniques.

:slight_smile:

Ron Goninan - Chairman
Okinawa Butoryu Gohokan
Australia

Ron,

I practice Wu Chu Chuan (5 ancestor fist) in Sydney and we have as one of our foundation styles white crane. We also practice the sam chien form in various guises - there are different sam chien form depending on which of the 5 foundation styles you wish to focus on, then one for the overall style.

Guns don’t kill people, I kill people

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http://tamago000.tripod.com/hist.html