Where are we going ?.....

Greetings..

I hope this thread will be fun and a little frivolous.. I hope we can reserve judgment on the responses and accept them as food for thought.. so, here goes..

Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal..

Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa)..

Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training..

Now, please have a little fun with this.. but, seriousness is welcome, too..

I’ll start.. i guess that the goal is the process, that to have a destination is to set limits and i sense that limits are mental contrivances due to lack of imagination.. now, i do aspire to acheive milestones, but.. i sense that there are no “destinations”, only new points of departure.. (my students and friends insist that i departed a long time ago.. )..

i maintain my external forms and spar as the opportunity presents itself (1-2 times a week), but my focus is internal.. Tai Chi (Yang and Chen with assorted weaponry), QiGong and surfing (don’t ask, it will just confuse you as much as it does me, but.. all the principles are there).. The benefit is a sense of completeness, each complimenting the other..

Absolutely, if i didn’t sense the spiritual connection this path would not appeal to me.. like Yin/Yang there is physical/spiritual.. when the two harmonize we are capable of “magic” or sorcery.. (i define magic as something that delights, sorcery as something that does not)..

Any way, that’s it in a nutshell.. Oh, and i guess Herbology sneaks in there through some of the QiGong training.. (be nice, i remember some of the '60s and those “herbs” are sacrements, not entertainment..)..

Right now, I’m going to Golden Corral to get medieval on their all-you-can-eat steak buffet. I’ll be back later to give my real response.

Chris McKinley

:smiley: That’s the spirit, Chris.. Thanks..

when i take a look at why i’m doing what i’m doing…for what goal, i don’t seem to have one. i’m doing my art because something about it clicks in me. sure i want to be a shifu, and i’d like to have my own school one day to continue my shifu’s goal of giving as many people as possible the gift his shifu gives him, but there is no end goal like you say, just marker along the way.
i think the only real goal to have in life is to find that thing that makes the click in you. just to have found it is so wonderful an acheivement that all else feels like beautiful scenery along the ride.
the only dicipline i train in is ba gua. i’ve played with tai chi and enjoyed it, but realize they both reach the same end, so rather stick with less material to learn it better. but too, ba gua has something about it that tai chi doesn’t have and i love that something and i feel it missing when i do tai chi, so i stick with just ba gua.
i believe their is a spiritual aspect to finding that thing that clicks in you. it may not be tai chi for many people who train in it, or maybe even teach it. it can be painting, writing, long walks, smoking cigarettes…it’s that thing that brings the spirit alive, that gives that sense of “yes, this is it!”. i think for those that find it in tai chi, then it is tai chi that is spiritual for them. i think tai chi is a great channel for spirituality, but it depends if one is open to the channel. same as anything.

hey bob i enjoy your energy. real kind. just wanna let you know. :slight_smile: nice posting with you.

Good idea for a discussion.

"Where do you guys and gals intend to go with your arts.. do you have goals, or is the process its own goal.. "

  • My real goal is to be able to teach kung fu for a living or at least make a living within a related area. I train full time in a course which is designed to eventualy make me into a teacher. I also would like to pass the art on to my children and one thing i would LOVE is to think that in another couple of hundred years it may still be practiced and improved by my own desendents.
    My other goal is to be respected for my arts which may sound egotistical but i feel like i owe it to my instructors to be of a good reputation and in turn bring more respect to them.
    I personaly see combat skill as vital to good martial arts as otherwise to me its just energy work or dance and for that i would simply study yoga or breakdance. Combat skill is not the only thing but to me it go’s hand in hand with technique. If you have no technique but can still hurt your not ‘using’ Tai Chi, if you have no combat skill but good technique then you cant ‘use’ Tai Chi to me you can only perform it.

“Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa)..”

  • Yes i train mainly Bagua and also now starting Tai Chi and have been doing Hung for years. I find Tai Chi the most exacting and it seems to give me better mechanics to take to my other arts.
    Still my Hung has given me great grounding ability and leg strength which has been suprisingly usefull in Tai Chi.
    They all seem to work really well with each other in a weird way which is something i was not really expecting.
    I think Bagua will be my main art though as its what i tend to lean towards when sparring naturaly.

"Do you believe that there is a spiritual aspect to Tai Chi, or just physics and training.. "

  • Yes i think Taoism is actualy very important to the practice of Tai Chi if your looking at it from either a combat or qigung perspective. If health is your only goal then its not so important but to properly understand the fighting mind of the system and the way it transports power around the body it REALLY helps to understand a little about Taoism and even a little about Chinese culture and way of thinking. One of my sihings for Bagua once said an odd thing to me a few weeks before he was never heard from again, weird south american guy… “Bagua is like black magic if you understand it you can get amazing benifits, if not it can lead to trouble and even bad health”.
    At first his comment seemed strange to me but now im starting to understand it.

Theres my long winded and overly stated view for ya all :slight_smile:

Originally posted by jon
[B]

  • Yes i think Taoism is actualy very important to the practice of Tai Chi if your looking at it from either a combat or qigung perspective. If health is your only goal then its not so important [/B]

Hey there Jon, Just wanted to make a quick comment here. Training of Tai-Chi directly affects your health due to the very nature of removing blockages and mental torpor, in the meridian body. You will find the connection soon, seeing how dedicated you are :slight_smile: I just wanted to say this so that you don’t close your mind on it.

I train so that I can kill people with my Taoist Chi skills. However, I can only kill people who are psychic vampires and hungry ghosts since they are endowed with “negative” ie Yin Jing and my Taoist powers of Chi manipulation are Yang. I practice Sperm Fu you see. I’ve been supplementing that with 'lots of Tongue Fu, whenever my girlfriend’s up for it so maybe someday I can kill regular people too. Any how, I used to go for the Light Body Kung (my original goal for training) but the piano wire kept cutting me when I jumped off the roof of my Apartment, and I couldn’t find a leather harness that was truly concealable, so I finally gave up on that.

For the leaf this has been a kind of evolution, I have studied different CMA along the way. I guess the TC was always there from the beginning, i just didn’t know it. :slight_smile:

I only play the CMC style and push these days, as a younger man I did many of things that people write of here trying to prove or find something, at the end I found myself.

Haven for me would be to become a park tc teacher. If people find some use in what I have then cool. if not, hey it’s a nice day to be in the park. :wink:

prana

  • Well said and point taken:)

To everyone else, i just re read my post and im sorry if i sound like im REALLY pro combat and unable to accept those who have a different focus. I dont mean to be so aggresive and i sometimes almost forget our true goal should always be progression of the self and the spirit not simply how well we can kick ass:(

Scarletmantis

  • That was a darn funny post :smiley:

Hmm.

I practice taiji/internal arts because they are the only arts that evolve with me. The more I practice the more I learn. Its not like karate, or jiujutsu, or kendo, or anything else I have done, where at a certain point, there is only faster or stronger, after the techniques have been learned. I could only do one posture of a taiji form for ever day of the next year, and still just be touching on its potential, martially or health wise or spiritually, since I disdain separating those. I could only walk the circle for a year, and come out of it with a deeper understanding of bagua.

This is why I practice internal.

It may be that this is open in external styles, and many people will say it is, but in all the years I did martial arts before working the internals, I did not see it. So regardless, taiji is the one for me, because it is never just boring repetitions, each moment is a learning moment.

I seriously just wanna learn how to fajing. What could be cooler than straight blasting someone 10 feet away, especially if your like 80, old man strength is a 10 on the coolness meter :smiley: Too bad i dont study an “internal” art. :frowning:

uh for me it’s to see how much of it i can get by myself. cause basically i have no formal si fu / instructor. i meet very high level masters who don’t teach. i get some training from them for hours on just one subject like an excercise.

i think it’s more something to challenge myself to. if i do somehow get to a high level it’s something that i possess alone because i was able to…endure? haha i wanted to say it in chinese but yeah endure the training and have something to show for it.

that’s the basic goal i guess. i don’t train for martial aspect, no self defense or any of that. pure health and coolness reasons. because training for just the martial reasons to beat someone up or hurt someone internally is a bad mindset and that usually limits one’s training. and plus i have nobody to fight so i can only rely on myself.

as for spiritual stuff if you mean taoism then yeah sure. but taoism isn’t pure spiritualism. it was a set rules that was founded as a lifestyle. confucism(if i spelt that right) is the more adopted way of life in china because taoism is very hard to understand. with principles such as no action, and that superficial things such as music, eye candy are all damaging to one in the end.

it isn’t necessarily important but i think can enrich your training. after all taoism is based upon nature/heaven. and tai chi is based ont he laws of nature.

but then again. no matter what you read, books of people projecting chi out of their eyes. that’s all “sun fah”. if you have too much sun fah then you’re real training gets limited because you only THINK that you’ll be able to shoot chi out of ur eyes.

blah most importantly is the practise. everyone can explain everything to a person about what feelings they should have when doing this or doing that but it’s no use tot he person unless they actual practise it and experience it for themselves.

Tai Chi Bob
Hope your training is going well.

For me TC & Internal arts are the cultivation of internal energy that can be expressed for fighting and healing yourself maybe others. I think body mechanics are the primary goal in achieveing a powerful structure that then develops the internal properties. When perfoming the forms I focus on different areas. For example by literally putting my mind in my lower belly, I can feel a definate warmth, that does glow intensely especially when performing the explosive movements of Pi-Chuan.

I know you do not agree with my sentiments that people who do not practice mainly for martial power are doing the art a diservice. I still hold to this mainly because there are many who like the image of being a mystic TC practioner, often to be seen as “different”, and to impress others. Personally I do not tell others what I do as I prefer not to stand out in the crowd or have labels attached.

There are far more effective energy and spiritual practices than the IMA. Mantak Chia’s Taoist esoteric yoga (internal alchemy). I practice the energy cultivation techniques he teaches (small heavenly circulation) and found it very effective, in developing and feeling energy. While I sit here I can put my mind in my Dantien with prenatal breathing and cultivate the energy, you can do this anywhere.

I also practice sitting meditation, I go to a Zen-Buddist retreat in Rochdale. I talk with Rev. Peter who has told me that the practice of internal martial arts are to help polish the self. In Zen they attempt to remove the concept of self, as it is the beginning of conflict and dividing the world. Which is in fact contrary to Zen-buddism and the deeper levels of taoism. I had a lot of trouble accepting this as my ego will not let go as I am quite addicted to the feeling of cultivating the energy in my body, as I understand that such cultivation is just re-affirming the self. But I cling to the belief that Taoist masters used IMA to aid them in becoming connected to the Tao. But I suppose I do not have any answers, just questions.

So I cannot understand why others who practice IMA do not want to practice any fighting elements, since like I said there are more effective paths to health and spiritual practice.

Rev. Peter also said that sitting meditation even under his guidance can prove danagerous if I am not readly for it as it will undermine all concepts of self. So he wants me to serious think if I am ready to take this step. But I cannot let go of my love of IMA.

Anyone any Ideas!

TaiChiBob - Where are we going?..

-My goal is to help adults and seniors. I hope to make them realize how important exercise is even at their age. The older we become the more we have to stretch. If there is another path to follow I will go with it.

-At 55, the warrior has become a healer (of sorts) so I concentrate on Lao Jia & Pao Choi. I do a Lohan form, still slap the iron and train on the broadsword & staff. All this training makes me wish I was young again so I could train more. Qigong as also become an important part of my path. I still practice 8 Sections Brocade, Weiqi 18 and Dragon Gate Qigong. I am considering traveling to Boston, occasionally, and train with Dr.Yang, Jwing Ming in Qigong.

  • I believe I train with discipline because if the occasion should present itself I want to be ready. Someone said, “The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in battle”. Hope I don’t have to find out if it is true or not.

  • I have always believed that the MA have always had a connection with religion in some way and I believe there is something spiritual about Tai Chi.

Last but not least, I do some herbology. I really enjoy making Dit Da Jow even though my wife would like me out of the kitchen. I have always felt that making Jow was part of being an Iron Palm practitioner.

                                 Damian

                        Beware the Fury of
                         a patient man.

good idea for a thread TaiChiBob :slight_smile:

Well, compared to most of you guys here, i have only begun my martial arts journey. It has been an evolutionary process though…

I used to get bullied in school which is why i first took up Karate. The goal for that was simple: to give me confidence to stand up to people. Afterwards, when i really started getting in to it, i was fascinated by the kata and applications. Of course i also did a lot of sparring to ‘prove’ myself. Once my teacher retired though, i didn’t have anyone to teach me (as i live in a small countryside town), so i looked at many other systems: Boxing, Muay Thai, Shorinji Kempo and eventually Aikido. As you can see they were gradually moving more towards the Internal, as well as having more ‘character’ training. I studied that for around 4/5 years, and it really opened my eyes to the more Internal principles. That fascinated me.

Now though, i train in Wing Chun Kuen, Dayan (Wild Goose) Qigong and Hard Qigong all from my Sifu. When i met him (quite by accident) something just ‘clicked’ inside me, and i knew i had to study with him. The reasons i train now are many…

  1. i train for health (of mind and body)
  2. i train to develop and understand the skills my Sifu has shown me
  3. i train to develop the attributes needed for self defence (correct posture, relaxation, correct use of energy, clear mind etc. not combat training per se).
  4. i enjoy it
  5. being with the others in my group feels like a second family and makes me feel happy
  6. i want to get good at it (so as not to let me or my Sifu down).

Hopefully some day i will also learn Taijiquan and Shaolin, but until then i think i have enough to learn :wink:

david

In a somewhat Taoist fashion, my goals are both event AND process oriented. Practice on any level is rewarding in and of itself, but there is also a particular De for my practice of it.

I’d like to be remembered for having preserved and maybe even expanded the combat viability of Baguazhang and for acting as a liaison between the enthusiastic but unfamiliar average student and the lofty but esoteric aspects of advanced martial arts skill. Basically, I want to empower the good guys.

RE: “Do you train in multiple disciplines.. if so, what are they, and how do they benefit your Tai Chi (or vice versa)..”. I have trained in a number of things over the years. For the last several years, I’ve had a stable configuration of Baguazhang, Kali, Taijiquan, and Machado JJ. The JJ is obviously to shore up ground capabilities. For me, the interesting interplay is between Baguazhang and Kali. In my practice, each improves the other.

Kali brings a great practicality and versatility of real combat applications to the mix. The learning curve is among the shortest in all of the martial arts. The trapping skills are the equal of Wing Chun’s, if you’re into that. The weapons skill with weapons that reflect real world availability is rivalled only by Kali’s sister arts of Silat from next door in Indonesia, IMO. The hand skills are lightning-fast and efficient. The practical usage of various body weapons is top shelf. The lock flows when using controlling lines are invaluable.

Baguazhang, in complement, brings superior biomechanics, power generation, and flow to the mix, besides its own deviously cruel applications. Baguazhang is a major influence in many Indonesian Kuntao systems, and as a result, some of my applications are often mistaken for Kuntao, which is known for its extreme brutality.

In the evolutionary cycle of almost any given martial art, there are three distinct phases. There is an evolutionary phase (usually occurring in times of war) when the art is being developed as a combat method. This is when the art is being maximally field-tested.

Next, there is a plateau phase (usually in peacetime) when the art most evolves and reaches the pinnacle of development in both its techniques and principles. It is during this phase that the art’s most skilled and celebrated practitioners arise.

Finally, there is a degradation or devolution phase (almost always in periods of extended peacetime) when the art is transformed from a coherent collection of combat-tested fighting methods to a martial WAY. It is during this phase that the effective combat methods of the art become obscured by both the passing of time and the institutionalization of the movements as ceremonial expression of the art’s philosophical principles. In terms of degradation, the first to go are usually the most combat-oriented and combat-effective methods.

While not all arts fit this exact mold for one reason or another, the model still generally works for predicting the history of most martial arts.

Baguazhang is still relatively new and obscure here in the US. Neither it nor Xing Yi Quan have yet been subject to much of the watering down as a combat art that their sister art of Taijiquan has experienced as a whole. Taijiquan, in fact, might represent the quintessential example of an art that finds itself at the very end of the evolutionary cycle, at least in this country. Yet still, even Bagua is no longer regularly field-tested and honed by its practitioners as it once was, such as in the days of the Chinese Imperial Bodyguards. This puts Bagua in, at the very least, the plateau phase, and in all likelihood, it is well into its degradation phase.

All that said, one of my goals is not to contribute to the entropy of the art. While the art as a whole may be moving inexorably toward degradation, it is still possible to have isolated eddies of development going on. That may be the most I can hope for.

As for the process side, every day reveals just slightly more insight into my personal De. It also offers a host of health benefits of great value to that facet of me which is a healer.

Originally posted by Internal Boxer
[B]
I also practice sitting meditation, I go to a Zen-Buddist retreat in Rochdale. I talk with Rev. Peter who has told me that the practice of internal martial arts are to help polish the self. In Zen they attempt to remove the concept of self, as it is the beginning of conflict and dividing the world. Which is in fact contrary to Zen-buddism and the deeper levels of taoism. I had a lot of trouble accepting this as my ego will not let go as I am quite addicted to the feeling of cultivating the energy in my body, as I understand that such cultivation is just re-affirming the self. But I cling to the belief that Taoist masters used IMA to aid them in becoming connected to the Tao. But I suppose I do not have any answers, just questions.

Anyone any Ideas! [/B]

Greets Internal Boxer,

So long as you treat the cultivation of energy simply as energy without becoming addicted to it, then you should be fine.

Zen removes the labelling of anything, and returns it to its purer state. The practise of Zen should not hinder your practise of natal breathing. It should be okay.

Have you heard of Zen Master Sheng-Yen ? (not to be confused with the other Sheng Yen he calls himself as Buddha)…

Originally posted by Scarletmantis
I train so that I can kill people with my Taoist Chi skills. However, I can only kill people who are psychic vampires and hungry ghosts since they are endowed with “negative” ie Yin Jing and my Taoist powers of Chi manipulation are Yang. I practice Sperm Fu you see. I’ve been supplementing that with 'lots of Tongue Fu, whenever my girlfriend’s up for it so maybe someday I can kill regular people too. Any how, I used to go for the Light Body Kung (my original goal for training) but the piano wire kept cutting me when I jumped off the roof of my Apartment, and I couldn’t find a leather harness that was truly concealable, so I finally gave up on that.
Thanks Scarlet, that is a classic. Do you accept students ? :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:
peace :slight_smile:

Only if you’re a girl Prana. By the way, if you didn’t notice, I was just joking about killing people. I really train to impress the ladies, which is what Sperm and Tongue Fu are really for. At least thats what the Taoist sage who taught me said, but he was celebate, so what does he know? Anyhow, my training was REALLY awkward since I’m heterosexual and he’s a virgin. You don’t wanna know how we practiced applications!

Scarlet,

heheh ummm ok I take your word for it :smiley: Errr sorry to disappoint, I am definitely a guy :wink:

edit : I think you just blinded my mental screen :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

ok, better not screw this great thread up…