The real question is this:
Where will MMA be in 100 years?
Hey Pangquan - didn’t I trademark crotch kicks here on the forum? Don’t make me come after you for infringement… 
I think given all the upheavel in China and the very ship shod record keeping and recording there’s very little doubt that the vast, vast majority of the original art (If there ever was such a thing) has been lost.
I’ve never been to China but I have a feeling that learning Kung Fu over there has become a big business. They are vastly more interested in making money teaching rich Americans then preserving the art.
I don’t know. I would be happy to be in a program that made no claims of linage at all but rather taught a good sound program.
lineage will mean less and less ( outside politics) as the years go by, one of good things MMA has given us and future generations is the knowledge that ability far outweights lineage.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;763644]lineage will mean less and less ( outside politics) as the years go by, one of good things MMA has given us and future generations is the knowledge that ability far outweights lineage.[/QUOTE]
Lineage will always play an important role in styles that don’t regularly compete in open venues.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;763647]Lineage will always play an important role in styles that don’t regularly compete in open venues.[/QUOTE]
Only to those more interested in politics than effectivness.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;763647]Lineage will always play an important role in styles that don’t regularly compete in open venues.[/QUOTE]
Are we talking about dance here? The “art” as opposed to the “fighting skills”? And do you honestly believe there are styles that are done in the exact same way they were a 150 years ago?
[QUOTE=GeneChing;763638]Where will MMA be in 100 years?
[/QUOTE]
it will be even better
for the simple fact that people can look back at tv shows and see what was good and wasnt and comparen it to how they are doing it
[QUOTE=GeneChing;763638]
Hey Pangquan - didn’t I trademark crotch kicks here on the forum? Don’t make me come after you for infringement… ;)[/QUOTE]
ahem…i mean my ego revolves around GENE’s Crotch ™ kicks ™
Lineage:
Lineage will always be important to many styles if nothing more than to simply remember those who were actually involved in the progression of said art. Not so much about the deeds that each lineage holder had done, but more for historical purposes of names, places, dates. as much as can be remembered.
give a style that has a very detailed lineage 100 years, and you will see 100 more years of even better record keeping due to modern technology and mass communication.
sure the old stuff is shrowded in confusion and often mystery, but thats only a portion…the future is yet to be written, and by some, it will be written as accurately as possible.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;763638]Where will MMA be in 100 years?
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=golden arhat;763656]it will be even better
for the simple fact that people can look back at tv shows and see what was good and wasnt and comparen it to how they are doing it[/QUOTE]
The way the world is being pVssified, we will no longer have martial arts 100yrs from now.
Ban guns
Ban knives
Ban Martial Arts
Ban self defense
Ban agression
Welcome to the new world people.
not in the united states of pangquan!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
EVERYBODY rattles on about “lineage”. I was trained by “x” is inevitable.
It doesn’t matter what you do. You had to learn it from somewhere and thats the point.
Even KnFi has a “lineage”. :rolleyes:
If my teacher’s teacher, with over 50 years of experience, decided he was going to create a style based on his experience, I would be the second in line to try and learn it.
It would be a far cry from the strip mall Sokes that make up a style in their back yard from smattering of things they stole from other styles while at the last high school gym tournament.
banning things does nothing
the martial arts will always survive
and human nature will always prevail
[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;763641]I think given all the upheavel in China and the very ship shod record keeping…[/quote]
Um, upheaval, yes, but I wouldn’t call the record keeping ship shod. Where there is vested imperial interest in how an event unfolds, dodgy, where there is none or merely academic interest, amazing stuff is in there. You have to remember, these were people who had military sectrets, trade secrets, etc. Amazing processes that they worked with, and compulsive record keepers, to my knowledge. If an unexpected comet passed, it HAD to be documented and there HAD to be an official explanation for what it had to do with the emporer’s current affairs. Because of this, the jesuit’s expertise was sometimes sought out to be better prepared for astronomical events.
“…and recording there’s very little doubt that the vast, vast majority of the original art (If there ever was such a thing) has been lost.”
China is vast, and commoners from one region probably never really saw another region. The problem with the ‘original art’ idea is that it means a lot of these other regions were just twiddling their thumbs at that time, and had no approach to warfare at all. It’s more likely that over time a number of regional approaches influenced each other, so that the similarity between kung fu styles is sometimes more a similarity at the fringe of its thinking, and not the core, later additions to an earlier core. Thus, you get crane hands somewhere in just about everything. However, its also possible that they came up with it independently in some cases. Way too much research to do for that many styles.
Anyway, there’s tons of styles whose proponents have recorded their methods in better detail than english language kung fu books tend to suggest. I suspect the non-martialized ideology that colored communist support of martial arts has inadvertently been adopted by english language martial arts authors as well. Lots of forms without any other real info.
Still, notes are not enough, so the ideal is a practitioner who knows plus a body of written notes from the past, in case anything is forgotten. This exists for plenty of kung fu styles.
[QUOTE=BoulderDawg;763655]Are we talking about dance here? The “art” as opposed to the “fighting skills”?[/QUOTE]
Lineage is not a question for people who are out testing, competing and improving in open venues. You can’t really question someone’s lineage when he or his students are kicking your or your students’ behinds.
Lineage arguments are usually reserved for those who don’t put themselves out there and hide in their training studios making claims about their deadly techniques.
And do you honestly believe there are styles that are done in the exact same way they were a 150 years ago?
I doubt much of anything is done exactly the way it was 150 years ago.
Lineage is a fair means to judge who during a particular period produces notable fighters. It is part of the reason the Gracie name is relevant: while some family members will be better than others, the overall skill level should be good, as long as the lineage continues to be relevant. Choosing the Gracies because of their pedigree is perfectly valid, and, I suspect, was quite common among mma circles.
Just distinguishing between lineage and lineage arguments.
However, one could make the case of lineage, in the sense of accrued reputation, contributing to a loss of dynamism in a line of teaching. Once one only has to maintain an image to make a more stable life than fighting or teaching alone can, the incentive will be much higher for most to do so, regardless of style.
legends are lies to begin with, so are fairy tales and so on, but we all tell them or listen to them anyway.
it’s part of the sub-culture to fashion it’s own lies that are presented as truths.
there is no sub-culture of pure truth as far as I can tell.
religious, political, grassroots or otherwise, everyone and every group has a skeleton in that closet somewhere.
there is no person here who has not lied. it’s part of being human. 
when it gets out of hand and you start believing your own lies? well that’s a whole other potato and you are most worthy of the pity you get fo that. hahaha
Ok
Interesting line of posts heck even Gene got involved. So, I offered my son free guitar lessons from a friend who is a great guitarist, he declined and wanted to learn in his own way to develop his own style of playing. He is a very good guitarist. Early on someone said SD was fake well it isnt the forms are traditional and contain the traditional aspects of the CMA. To say a style does not have its roots where it says it does and to call the history of the style a lie is nothing but pure EGO . Every system has the start in someone wanting to be all they can without the help of others as long as they can fight or play a guitar well is all that matters and that is what makes them legit. BULL KC
Lineage,
Don’t ignore the fact, lineage goes both ways, up and back.
For example, would Yip Man be as highly regarded if he didn’t have the link to Bruce?
Like most information, its not what it is, but how you use it.
The term Master is only significant if it is given to a teacher by his students. The measure of a lineage is not necessarily the skill of the teacher, but the strength of his “children”.
Legends,
Lots of legends are lessons, and in the lesson is the truth, not the legend itself.
Bruce opened most (western) eyes to Kung Fu. Wing Chun became a popular style becouse of him. Really though all Kung Fu benefited from Bruce. Hell I wouldn’t have started any martial arts if I didn’t first watch Bruce lee “fight” in movies.
I think the point of lineage is for students who want to learn the style to know that what they are learning is coming from a good source. Most people would want to learn calculus from Newton than from your neighborhood drug addict. Dont let lineage arguments interfere with the benefits of lineages. To repeat: through lineages we know if its legit or not.
B red