this
wushu spear http://youtube.com/watch?v=a14_hZQIJqY
as opposed to a trad form like this http://youtube.com/watch?v=WI_zSP8_DpU
both seem equally pointless but where do u make the distinction between good and bad 
especcially on the last one at 00:34
who uses spears anymore?
classical weapon training is about preservation of an art and the posterity of doing so.
Itās only pointless from one perspective.
Kickboxing is a pointless exercise from the viewpoint of practical marksmanship.
Life is pointless from the viewpoint if the nihilist.
in context to the study of kungfu the wushu practice has additional elemenst which contradict good martial principle. there is hyperextension of the limbs, showboat energy wasting and so on. with the trad version, every thrust is an attempt at a pierce, with the wushu version, this is not the case.
hope that helps. 
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;793096]who uses spears anymore?
classical weapon training is about preservation of an art and the posterity of doing so.
Itās only pointless from one perspective.
Kickboxing is a pointless exercise from the viewpoint of practical marksmanship.
Life is pointless from the viewpoint if the nihilist.
in context to the study of kungfu the wushu practice has additional elemenst which contradict good martial principle. there is hyperextension of the limbs, showboat energy wasting and so on. with the trad version, every thrust is an attempt at a pierce, with the wushu version, this is not the case.
hope that helps. :)[/QUOTE]
it does to an extent (y)
but even say in the second one at 00:34 seconds where he just seems to be skipping ?
or the part where he has it behind his back and hitting with the blunt end of the spear ? (not slamming just thrusting )
:S
[QUOTE=golden arhat;793097]it does to an extent (y)
but even say in the second one at 00:34 seconds where he just seems to be skipping ?
or the part where he has it behind his back and hitting with the blunt end of the spear ? (not slamming just thrusting )
:S[/QUOTE]
Normally, it comes down to the skill of the user than the technique itself, but the skipping seemed very odd. I guess if someone tried rolling marbles against the fighter to try to trip him? Thatās the only thing I can think of. But, exhibition forms are just that. They are designed more around showing off than martial applications. Itās not about energy conservation or speed in ending fights.
Thrusting with the butt of a staff/spear is the same as thrusting with a point. The point is to hit the target. Some areas are more susceptible to injury than other parts, like the throat, if hit with the butt end of a mini mag flashlight or with the emission end of a gun. A point will pierce the skin, but a blunt end will damage without piercing.
That skipping technique is in a lot of traditional long fist forms. Itās in my broadsword form, and in two of my open-hand sets. Youāll see it in Kwan Dao forms, spear forms, etcā¦
the skipping is kicking sand-from what Iāve been told-ok, makes sense, but why do it several times? Frankly, if it were me, Iād feel downright silly.
I know a lot of traditional forms have been modified to incorporate āwushu likeā moves, so that they look more impressive. Now I donāt know either of the forms you posted, but it is always possible that the second one isnāt 100% traditional.
Lending a Japanese perspective to it, the spear kataās build some solid wrist power and shoulder power, thrusting and twisting a 12ft spear is quite a freaking workout.
From a practical standpoint the skill transference to a ācomparableā modern weapon is less than with a Bo Staff, but it is still there.
Then again JMA weapons forms tend to be basic, powerful and fast, not āfloweryā
Weapons training has a lot of depth to it much like open hand forms training.
With regards to spear and staff forms, they use a lot of up and down motion that works on cardio. Conditions forearms. Works on distancing and depth perception. The other aspect of weapons forms is weapons sparring. Typically done with staff, straight sword and broadsword. Not many instructors do this. One, the equipment is expensive. Two, most instructors DO NOT KNOW THE APPLICATIONS of the forms.
Translating weapons to street application is a bit more tricky. This is a sticking point with me. No one carries around these weapons anymore. We carry knives, guns, etc. But CMA or any other MA, did not evolve and begin teaching marksmanship. I saw Krav Maga on TV, and they do incorporate firearms and knives into their weapons training. More realistic I would say. Now back to CMA weapons. It does teach you to work with something in your hands, which is better than nothing. It teaches you how to work with bladed, blunt, long and short weapons. With regards specifically to staff and spear, you are able to pick up a pole and weild it effectively(granted your sifu showed you the application to the form). With regards to the broad sword, it translates well to a baseball bat. The straight sword translates to holidng a car antenna.
Having said all that, I use CMA weapons to work on stance training, conditioning, balance, and preservation of the history of my style. As I have posted before, I do not believe ANY Martial Arts have any any street application that is the end all be all. Any martial art out there practice blocking a bullet or having someone unknowingly stab you in the back technique? How bout getting jumped by ten big guys with clubs and a shotgun. Any MA got a fool proof defense against that? Dont think so, yet it happens on the street. How bout a defense against 2 teens coming into a space and shooting it up? How bout someone walking up to you and just smashing your face in while his buddies kicks you to the ground and takes your wallet. How bout a defense against some guy walking into a cafe and blowing himself, and you, up. Well I guess if you are in MMA you can hug the guy and save the rest of the people in the cafe. Bottomline, street confrontation are unpredictable.
Pointless is based on the perspective of the individual. I believe MMA is pointless. Doesnāt mean its not effective, but based on all the street fights I have seen and some involved in, MMA is a sure way to get your butt kicked and put into a hospital. I believe SUVās are pointless, thatās cause I am single. To a married guy with 4 kids, that viewpoint may be different.
Classical weapons forms = pointless.
That would depend on what you want out of it.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;793110]That skipping technique is in a lot of traditional long fist forms. Itās in my broadsword form, and in two of my open-hand sets. Youāll see it in Kwan Dao forms, spear forms, etcā¦[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=TenTigers;793112]the skipping is kicking sand-from what Iāve been told-ok, makes sense, but why do it several times? Frankly, if it were me, Iād feel downright silly.[/QUOTE]
That skipping, I was told, is Monkey footwork and is a retreating kick. Itās done to disrupt a forward advance (not intended to do much damage so no sense pointing out how weak it would be) and should cover more distance (after all, you ARE retreating).
Itās in one of my broadsword forms but only a couple of times. That video showed it poorly executed and repeated way too many times.
I agree that this set has been modified for performance.
but even say in the second one at 00:34 seconds where he just seems to be skipping ?
Reply]
He is supposed to be running, the floor is too short.
[QUOTE=xcakid;793127]Weapons training has a lot of depth to it much like open hand forms training.
With regards to spear and staff forms, they use a lot of up and down motion that works on cardio. Conditions forearms. Works on distancing and depth perception. The other aspect of weapons forms is weapons sparring. Typically done with staff, straight sword and broadsword. Not many instructors do this. One, the equipment is expensive. Two, most instructors DO NOT KNOW THE APPLICATIONS of the forms.
Translating weapons to street application is a bit more tricky. This is a sticking point with me. No one carries around these weapons anymore. We carry knives, guns, etc. But CMA or any other MA, did not evolve and begin teaching marksmanship. I saw Krav Maga on TV, and they do incorporate firearms and knives into their weapons training. More realistic I would say. Now back to CMA weapons. It does teach you to work with something in your hands, which is better than nothing. It teaches you how to work with bladed, blunt, long and short weapons. With regards specifically to staff and spear, you are able to pick up a pole and weild it effectively(granted your sifu showed you the application to the form). With regards to the broad sword, it translates well to a baseball bat. The straight sword translates to holidng a car antenna.
Having said all that, I use CMA weapons to work on stance training, conditioning, balance, and preservation of the history of my style. As I have posted before, I do not believe ANY Martial Arts have any any street application that is the end all be all. Any martial art out there practice blocking a bullet or having someone unknowingly stab you in the back technique? How bout getting jumped by ten big guys with clubs and a shotgun. Any MA got a fool proof defense against that? Dont think so, yet it happens on the street. How bout a defense against 2 teens coming into a space and shooting it up? How bout someone walking up to you and just smashing your face in while his buddies kicks you to the ground and takes your wallet. How bout a defense against some guy walking into a cafe and blowing himself, and you, up. Well I guess if you are in MMA you can hug the guy and save the rest of the people in the cafe. Bottomline, street confrontation are unpredictable.
Pointless is based on the perspective of the individual. I believe MMA is pointless. Doesnāt mean its not effective, but based on all the street fights I have seen and some involved in, MMA is a sure way to get your butt kicked and put into a hospital. I believe SUVās are pointless, thatās cause I am single. To a married guy with 4 kids, that viewpoint may be different.
Classical weapons forms = pointless.
That would depend on what you want out of it.[/QUOTE]
i suppose
we train group fighting at my place
2 against 1
all against all (punching only) kind of trains ur reactions for mellee fighting
sometimes we have the whole class pick on one person and fight against him(for a limited time and only punching with boxing gloves) this kind of teaches you to evade and defend urself as best u can while fighting more than one person after the teacher says stop the guy gets up joins the class and the class pick another person to fight against (usually about 8-15 ppl in a class at one time)
iād say going to ground in a group fight is stupid
but in one on one fights i have found it extremely usefull
and its safe to say that using cma is a much surer way of going to hospital than using tried and tested mma techniques
[QUOTE=golden arhat;793134]i suppose
we train group fighting at my place
2 against 1
all against all (punching only) kind of trains ur reactions for mellee fighting
sometimes we have the whole class pick on one person and fight against him(for a limited time and only punching with boxing gloves) this kind of teaches you to evade and defend urself as best u can while fighting more than one person after the teacher says stop the guy gets up joins the class and the class pick another person to fight against (usually about 8-15 ppl in a class at one time)
iād say going to ground in a group fight is stupid
but in one on one fights i have found it extremely usefull
and its safe to say that using cma is a much surer way of going to hospital than using tried and tested mma techniques[/QUOTE]
Good training, still lacking though.
Tried and true MMA techniques. 
And where did those techniques derive from. Go ahead, Iāll give you a few hours to trace back the roots. Silly rabbit trick are for kids.
It really sounds like you have had some bad instructors coupled with your unmet expectations of CMA. CMA is usefull in street situations. I have used it on two confrontation in my life. One was quick: Altercation with a guy bigger than me. As he pulled back to punch, I did a 2 finger poke in his eyes. As he backed up and grab for his eyes, I got the flock outta there. I was by myself and he had his homies with him. Another altercation was at a bar. Guy was bothering my ex GF. As we were walking out he grab her butt. I said a few word to him. His response was to grab my throat. I hit him with a panther fist to the throat. As he gagged, I peeled off his hand from my neck with a chin na technique pressing his arm to the ground and proceeded to kick him in the face. That altercation got me a chauferred trip to a local holding cell and a wonderfull breakfast in cell the following morning. As well as a very entertaining visit with a judge.
If you are so into MMA, WTF are you doing in a kung fu board? 
I think this is a better clip for contrasting spear practices:
[QUOTE=RAF;793146]I think this is a better clip for contrasting spear practices:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=O7-TCotquKU&mode=related&search=[/QUOTE]
either that guy is 3 feet tall or that is a really long spear.:eek:
[QUOTE=xcakid;793142]Good training, still lacking though.
Tried and true MMA techniques. And where did those techniques derive from. Go ahead, Iāll give you a few hours to trace back the roots. Silly rabbit trick are for kids.
It really sounds like you have had some bad instructors coupled with your unmet expectations of CMA. CMA is usefull in street situations. I have used it on two confrontation in my life. One was quick: Altercation with a guy bigger than me. As he pulled back to punch, I did a 2 finger poke in his eyes. As he backed up and grab for his eyes, I got the flock outta there. I was by myself and he had his homies with him. Another altercation was at a bar. Guy was bothering my ex GF. As we were walking out he grab her butt. I said a few word to him. His response was to grab my throat. I hit him with a panther fist to the throat. As he gagged, I peeled off his hand from my neck with a chin na technique pressing his arm to the ground and proceeded to kick him in the face. That altercation got me a chauferred trip to a local holding cell and a wonderfull breakfast in cell the following morning. As well as a very entertaining visit with a judge.
If you are so into MMA, WTF are you doing in a kung fu board? :p[/QUOTE]
well most of the techniques i use dont come from cma thats for sure
i dont think kung fu is competly useless and i have a hunch that once upon a time was once quite similar to mma in concept and training
and that alot of what is now called cma is simply a tool to take money from westerners and chinese alike
and at the base of it when do u see a cma practitioner beat an mma practitioner in a fight ?
well then, simple answer really
adn yeah the reasons iām on this board
1 i like to discuss martial arts in general
2 i like discussing other things aswell
3 i used to do hung kune for 2 years (tho i am almost certain it wasnt legit) so i signed up here and found discussing thigs on here to be alot of fun so when i changed styles i carried on on discussing things basically
golden arhat
Look at the 00:33 point of the first video and notice the whipping head movement as he snaps into a pose. Very common in contemporary Wushu but nothing you would do in a real life fight, or a traditional CMA set.
The thing with modern Wushu is theyāll take traditional moves but execute them without any martial intent but with focus on appearance.
sparring:
sparring with weapons, if you are inclined to do so, shares many of the same qualities in regards to combat as empty hand fighting does.
Timing, distance, creating opportunity through deception (feints and the seizing of opportunity), breathing, perception and reaction time.
there are many benefits through weapon training, most through actual combat simulation, though you can still recieve numerous beneficial qualities through weapon training.
in addition, men of old could attest to the strength, endurance, and power that is build through long term use of heavy steel weapons.
[QUOTE=golden arhat;793149]well most of the techniques i use dont come from cma thats for sure
[/QUOTE]
Are you sure about that? 99 of the styles out there trace their roots back to CMA. Greco Roman Wrestling, sure. Pankration, sure. Some African warrior arts, yes. But majority of MA out there can trace root back to on form of CMA or another.
[QUOTE=golden arhat;793149]
i dont think kung fu is competly useless and i have a hunch that once upon a time was once quite similar to mma in concept and training
and that alot of what is now called cma is simply a tool to take money from westerners and chinese alike
[/QUOTE]
I agree. CMA has gotten watered down. It is very hard to find a competent instructor these days.
[QUOTE=golden arhat;793149]
and at the base of it when do u see a cma practitioner beat an mma practitioner in a fight ?
[/QUOTE]
In the ring I would say its nearly impossible to beat MMA using CMA. Out in the street. I would say the would depend on a lot of factor. Experience is being one of them. Wether or not they stick to their training or use a more unorthodox way of fighting is another. There are many variable in a street fight. One style is not the end all be all.
Heck my 13yo nephew with no MA training can beat an experienced MMA fighter out in the streets where there is no rule. He has won many 1st place in long range shooting and archery. No need to get up close and personal.
[QUOTE=golden arhat;793149]adn yeah the reasons iām on this board
1 i like to discuss martial arts in general
2 i like discussing other things aswell
3 i used to do hung kune for 2 years (tho i am almost certain it wasnt legit) so i signed up here and found discussing thigs on here to be alot of fun so when i changed styles i carried on on discussing things basically[/QUOTE]
Well there ya go. 
people with the mindset that MMA is the end all be all beat everyone method is the same as CMA people thinking they will eye gouge, throat chop, crotch kick ā¢ the world to death.
the same mindset with in the flaw that they believe in and gravitate to an extreme that is outside the bounds of actual reality.
real life street encounters of men protecting themselves and loved ones will not adhere to ideals or rules or any sort of format.
its a sickness both sides needs to drop.
a man with power is a man with power, period. if he trains hard, believes in his training and understands its limits AND its potentialities he is on the right path to making his MA work FOR HIM.