What's the difference?

[YungChun]

@sihing

Nothing personal but trust me man, if you are trying to punch and kick simultaneously while in trapping range

Misses the point of control IMO…

You take position to attack/control..

What you use to attack depends on the situation..

The advanced WCK fighter will attack on the top and the bottom with whatever kind of attack, with the legs and hands/arms, attacks on the bottom are not always kicks…

@sihing

anyone with good lat sau jik chung training and the knowledge to eat space will put you on your ass 99.5 % of the time.

There seems to be a different reference in use here.. The legs are also used to eat space and disrupt the opponent’s “stance” or leg position.. Part of doing this can also involve kicking–the use of legs–because they are longer–does not have to mean more space, it can involve less…

But again, this is all relative to skill.

As I said, a skilled WCK person will use his legs and his arms to take position and attack and take complete positional superiority–this by necessity involves both the arms. legs and body…

@sihing

The only reason someone would get away with that tactic is when the other guy is making a mistake and giving up to much space IMO. That’s more of a chance gamble action.

Again with the space thing.. Most of the moves in the system are for use on the inside, although legs can be used at longer ranges with Entering moves as well.

[esfwto]

hello gentelman,

too much weight in the front makes kicking slower. and i´m able to attac the knee for example. thats why i allways try to keep the weight

i trained with teakwondo guys and chi-gerk worked well for me- so i don´t want to miss it.

they allways used allot of space to stay away from me:) .

should´nt we try to stay on our place in wcWT?

i did not know that chi-gerk was created after yip mans death. but is this realy important?

[Buddha_Fist]

@esfwto

hello gentelman,

too much weight in the front makes kicking slower. and i´m able to attac the knee for example. thats why i allways try to keep the weight

So you prefer to sacrifice mobility and balance for the ability of kicking out ouf a rather stationary position? And your opponent is obviously going to run into it, right?

@esfwto

i trained with teakwondo guys and chi-gerk worked well for me- so i don´t want to miss it.

I guess it depends on your definition of Chi-Gerk. If you mean the version where the legs stick together all the time, there is a great chance for the fact that you’re training “chasing legs” as opposed to using the legs to “eat space”. I’m a Tae-Kwon-Do black belt myself and can’t believe that the above described Chi-Gerk can be of any use in sparring. TKD sparring is way to active and mobile to allow for such stuff.

@esfwto

they allways used allot of space to stay away from me:)

Not only from you, but from anybody. They stay within their kicking range. That’s their game.

@esfwto

should´nt we try to stay on our place in wcWT?

If you want to get whacked - yeah! Mobility / adaptation to the situation through footwork is the keyword.

@esfwto

i did not know that chi-gerk was created after yip mans death. but is this realy important?

That’s not really important. What is important is whether it truly works with skilled opponents, and not with your next door’s chubby training buddy.

[AndrewS]

James writes:

Nothing personal but trust me man, if you are trying to punch and kick simultaneously while in trapping range, it may work against some, but anyone with good lat sau jik chung training and the knowledge to eat space will put you on your ass 99.5 % of the time.

Chi gherk or to use a more technical term- using your legs- is entirely possible in closer ranges. Thai boxing and judo provide ample competitive evidence for this at ranges just inside where most chi sao is performed, and closer.

If you are able to maintain structure, pressure, and the ability to change while constantly/frequently having a leg free to act, there are numerous opportunties to use leg actions in combination with hand actions. Developing yourself to the point where you can do this takes some work, but stems from working on 0/100 based structure, which moves your central axis from directly between your feet (50/50, 40/60) back about 4-6", making it more likely and easier that when you press with the arms, the front leg will press at the same time, breaking the other person’s structure on the low line (a leg split in greco-roman wrestling). From this core mechanic (lead knee and elbow pressing), other things can develop.

Frankly, I usually don’t bring legs into chi sao with people who don’t train them regularly because most folks have a meltdown when you start kneeing, stepping on feet, and sweeping them, and take it kinda personally.

Emil writes:

I guess it depends on your definition of Chi-Gerk. If you mean the version where the legs stick together all the time, there is a great chance for the fact that you’re training “chasing legs” as opposed to using the legs to “eat space”.

Chi gherk (in WT) is the set of skills from stopkicking on the upper thigh or pelvis, to leg checks, to sweeps/offbalances off of leg checks, in to pressing their hip with yours. There are some formal chi gherk drills taught at upper levels which refine some mechanics working wooden dummy apps and Biu tze counters to them. These are probably derived from the chi gherk drills (cycles) constructed in HK in the 50s, which are appearantly based on much older loose applications (Rene, wanna chime in here?).

Andrew

[sihing]

@AndrewS

James writes:

Chi gherk or to use a more technical term- using your legs- is entirely possible in closer ranges. Thai boxing and judo provide ample competitive evidence for this at ranges just inside where most chi sao is performed, and closer.

If you are able to maintain structure, pressure, and the ability to change while constantly/frequently having a leg free to act, there are numerous opportunties to use leg actions in combination with hand actions. Developing yourself to the point where you can do this takes some work, but stems from working on 0/100 based structure, which moves your central axis from directly between your feet (50/50, 40/60) back about 4-6", making it more likely and easier that when you press with the arms, the front leg will press at the same time, breaking the other person’s structure on the low line (a leg split in greco-roman wrestling). From this core mechanic (lead knee and elbow pressing), other things can develop.

Frankly, I usually don’t bring legs into chi sao with people who don’t train them regularly because most folks have a meltdown when you start kneeing, stepping on feet, and sweeping them, and take it kinda personally.

Emil writes:

Chi gherk (in WT) is the set of skills from stopkicking on the upper thigh or pelvis, to leg checks, to sweeps/offbalances off of leg checks, in to pressing their hip with yours. There are some formal chi gherk drills taught at upper levels which refine some mechanics working wooden dummy apps and Biu tze counters to them. These are probably derived from the chi gherk drills (cycles) constructed in HK in the 50s, which are appearantly based on much older loose applications (Rene, wanna chime in here?).

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

In your example of chi gerk/close range kicking success, Thai Boxing and Judo, I do agree they can work in those competative environments, but again like I stated against someone that has good LSJK and keeps the range tight it is more unlikely. Nothing is impossible to apply though and there is always the equation of the skill level difference between the people fighting and applying it against.
As usual it comes down to one point, can you pull off what your art teaches you?

James

[AndrewS]

James writes:

In your example of chi gerk/close range kicking success, Thai Boxing and Judo, I do agree they can work in those competative environments, but again like I stated against someone that has good LSJK and keeps the range tight it is more unlikely.

Why?

Nothing is impossible to apply though and there is always the equation of the skill level difference between the people fighting and applying it against.
As usual it comes down to one point, can you pull off what your art teaches you?

Yes, and I’ve done it at speed, sparring under MMA rules, against people better than me.

Andrew

[YungChun]

@Buddha_Fist

I guess it depends on your definition of Chi-Gerk. If you mean the version where the legs stick together all the time, there is a great chance for the fact that you’re training “chasing legs” as opposed to using the legs to “eat space”. I’m a Tae-Kwon-Do black belt myself and can’t believe that the above described Chi-Gerk can be of any use in sparring. TKD sparring is way to active and mobile to allow for such stuff.

Well Chi Sao has arms sticking together yet clearly all training doesn’t involve chasing hands… :?

Certainly it depends on what you do with the drill.. The idea as in Chi Sao is to develop positional awareness and learn how to place the legs in positions with respect to the opponent that help you and hurt him.. Once position is taken with the legs and arms of course the idea is to use that position to develop your attack which need not be restricted to the arms.. Some of the first finishing moves I was introduced to was the use of kwai sat, where the opponent takes position with the legs and knees and drops and presses in his leg and knee into your “stance” this kind of move is debilitating and creates complete upper and lower control when used by a good practitioner…

Again the drills help to develop sensitivity to contact and position.. How often do legs “clash” in TKD matches? How hard is it to get leg contact? How hard is it to issue force and get familiar with timing of leg contact and placement. A basic idea is to place the legs in positions where the opponent’s kicking needs to replant his foot.. These can be very simple movements in sparring yet provide useful effects on entry as can stepping on the foot or placing the foot/leg in positions that make it harder for the opponent to move, these can set up other leg moves and of course hand moves as well, not to mention throws for those so inclined.

The question is if this is trained.. When some folks train their legs in this way they are always attempting to use their legs with their hands. Every time I step in in chi sao I will work to place my leg(s) in positions that interrupt–imbalance–or immobilize the opponent’s legs and movement.. When you do this and other stuff it becomes a natural part of whatever you do.

If you want this stuff in Chi Sao done with the legs or hands to be useful in sparring then train it in Chi sao and then bring it into your sparring and sparring drills..

[sihing]

@AndrewS

James writes:

Why?

Andrew

Just to clarify, I’m talking about once the distance is obtained, the idea is to maintain that distance not let the person go from in close to longer range distance.

Now basically the reason why is because the concept is not as stressed in those systems (more so in judo since it is a grappling sport), as it is in some lineages of WC. The idea, as you already know, is to maintain the close in distance, eat the space and do what you will to the person, all in few seconds. The further the distance is btwn the two of you the more chance a low line kick will succeed. Also, is the basic idea of placing pressure (attacking pressure with strikes/pulls/push/locks/ etc..and body pressure, continually moving in on him, crowding and such) on someone during this close range situation. Just standing there twiddling your thumbs won’t cut it. My limited experience tells me to damage him as much as possible then take him off his feet to the ground to further impede his mobility, and finish off there. Off course resistence has to be expected, so you just have to trust your abilities at this point (hopefully you put in enough practice/fight time).

To draw a picture persay, If my lead knee is on top of your lead knee, why would I want to raise up on one foot to lose balance/mobility in the process (two legs are much better for balance and movement than one in my book). Yeah, I know sh!t happens in a fight, but there are basic concepts of right and wrong things to do. e.g. Keeping my hands down by my side is the wrong thing to do when the guy is right in front of my face.
Having them somewhat near the area of engagement makes more sense in my book…Basic things that all fighting arts share. To me it is like telling a guy to try and kick the experienced wrestler once he has obtained his optimum range of engagement, it doesn’t make sense to me. But whatta I know ah;)

J

[YungChun]

@sihing

The further the distance is btwn the two of you the more chance a low line kick will succeed.

This indicates we are working with two completely different mental paradigms..

How in the world can more space which by definition means more time to target mean that it is easier to kick or hit for that matter.. The closer you are to the target the less time there is to land and therefore that much harder for the opponent to evade, block, parry, jam, etc.. It’s understood in the arts, and why folks are so careful once the range BEGINS to close, that once you get past a certain distance, depending on the size and speed of the fighters, that there is not enough time to react to an attack. Some folks call this “brim of fire” distance, others call this the “kill zone” . This refers to a distance at which the attack can get there too fast for the defender to respond to… If you let your opponent get this range, for him.. you WILL get hit..

The whole idea in both the inside use of kicking and striking is to operate inside this “kill zone” where the opponent cannot react fast enough to respond and defeat the attack.. This is the meaning of invisible kicks..

Further away IMO does not make it easier to land anything.. Unless you are talking about a spinning wheel kick or spinning back kick, maybe then you need a little more space to use those but we’re talking WCK kicks.. Kicks designed mainly for use on the inside.

[sihing]

@YungChun

This indicates we are working with two completely different mental paradigms..

How in the world can more space which by definition means more time to target mean that it is easier to kick or hit for that matter.. The closer you are to the target the less time there is to land and therefore that much harder for the opponent to evade, block, parry, jam, etc.. It’s understood in the arts, and why folks are so careful once the range BEGINS to close, that once you get past a certain distance, depending on the size and speed of the fighters, that there is not enough time to react to an attack. Some folks call this “brim of fire” distance, others call this the “kill zone” . This refers to a distance at which the attack can get there too fast for the defender to respond to… If you let your opponent get this range, for him.. you WILL get hit..

The whole idea in both the inside use of kicking and striking is to operate inside this “kill zone” where the opponent cannot react fast enough to respond and defeat the attack.. This is the meaning of “invisible kicks..”

Further away IMO does not make it easier to land anything.. Unless you are talking about a spinning wheel kick or spinning back kick, maybe then you need a little more space to use those but we’re talking WCK kicks.. Kicks designed mainly for use on the inside.

I understand the idea behind the closer you are the less time the other guy has to react, this a one of the main concepts behind WHY the WC system is more or less a closer range system.

The idea is that when you let the other guy have space you make it easier to perform the kick. When you eat the space you jam his ability to kick and therefore give him less weapons to use. Kicking is limited by range, this is a given. Even the worst fighters could get in clinch range with Ali and take away his weapons. Range in fighting is important as certain weapons are applicable at certain ranges. Vunak says that trapping range is the most lethal as all kinds of weapons (fists, elbows, forearms, headbutts, stomps, knees, finger jabs, inner arm attacks, etc..can be used). All the other ranges are more limited in there aresenal.

Regarding the invisible kicks, this to me is applied at wrist on wrist distance from outstretched arms, not quite the proper WC distance IMO, so in that context I agree that those types of kicks can be used effectively. To me elbow to elbow is proper distance for general WC application.

James

[Buddha_Fist]

@YungChun

Well Chi Sao has arms sticking together yet clearly all training doesn’t involve chasing hands… :?

Certainly it depends on what you do with the drill.. The idea as in Chi Sao is to develop positional awareness and learn how to place the legs in positions with respect to the opponent that help you and hurt him.. Once position is taken with the legs and arms of course the idea is to use that position to develop your attack which need not be restricted to the arms.. Some of the first finishing moves I was introduced to was the use of kwai sat, where the opponent takes position with the legs and knees and drops and presses in his leg and knee into your “stance” this kind of move is debilitating and creates complete upper and lower control when used by a good practitioner…

Again the drills help to develop sensitivity to contact and position.. How often do legs “clash” in TKD matches? How hard is it to get leg contact? How hard is it to issue force and get familiar with timing of leg contact and placement. A basic idea is to place the legs in positions where the opponent’s kicking needs to replant his foot.. These can be very simple movements in sparring yet provide useful effects on entry as can stepping on the foot or placing the foot/leg in positions that make it harder for the opponent to move, these can set up other leg moves and of course hand moves as well, not to mention throws for those so inclined.

The question is if this is trained.. When some folks train their legs in this way they are always attempting to use their legs with their hands. Every time I step in in chi sao I will work to place my leg(s) in positions that interrupt–imbalance–or immobilize the opponent’s legs and movement.. When you do this and other stuff it becomes a natural part of whatever you do.

If you want this stuff in Chi Sao done with the legs or hands to be useful in sparring then train it in Chi sao and then bring it into your sparring and sparring drills..

The question and the answer lie in how things are trained.