It is difficult in the town I live in to find anything that is not Okinawan or Korean. The Japanese styles and Okinawan systems dominate, and there seems to be a dojo on every corner.
I am very fortunate to have a world-class sifu here. And my loyalty lies with him.
However other than Tae Kwon Do, there is no Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwon anywhere. I have to drive an hour North of here to learn. I am in no hurry for any kind of “belt” ( I dont really believe in belt ranking anyway) so I go once or twice a month and practive the forms at home (sometimes I am allowed to video a certain form or technique for referrence while I am gone, with permission from the instructor) then I go back and show what I have learned, and answer questions about Kung Fu. The class is taught by a man who loves the art, and teaches to give back to his community and for the area kids. He teaches at no cost from a town hall and a church. His Black Belts epitomize the heart and soul of loving kindness and honor expected of classical martial artists.
It is run like a true “club” with a summer camp, and fundraisers for anything from parties, to trips to Florida to visit Grandmaster Kim.
I get tired of hearing about how TSD is like TKD, and how it is inferior or somehow useless. I am glad to hear others give it the credit it deserves, and I thank you.
Wing Chun IS the Distilled method of Shaolin Boxing. It was created to teach martial skill quickly to those who had none.
JKD was born of Bruce Lee, developed by Bruce Lee and later further developed by those who carried his legacy (Mostly Dan Inosanto and his students)
Bruces first art was Wing Chun in Yip Man’s school.
Yip Man added much to the Wing Chun curriculum that he taught and brought it further than what it originally was.
I don’t believe that it is “talking stupid” to say that wing chun is a distilled version of a larger art form or that JKD is also a distilled version of a larger art form.
eventually and with time, I think that JKD will become and is becoming a “system” as much as all its proponents say its a “concept” they are placing hard and fast rules on it to keep it from becoming what so many other martial arts have become …incomplete.
Sorry for the typo error. Near the last sentence “Some kwans of TDO use midnight blue…” the TDO s/b TSD. That correction should eliminate any confussion the typing error may have caused.
[This message was edited by Terry on 11-24-00 at 11:30 AM.]
[This message was edited by Terry on 11-24-00 at 11:31 AM.]
I didnt think there was an attack against Wing Chun or JKD, was there?
I saw a response to a post that seemed to make TSD out to be an inferior art form and the response basically said (like so many others) “there are no superior arts only superior artists.”
Laidies and Gentlemen, lets try not to let thinskin get in the way of otherwise good converstion!
rogue - sorry I cannot confirm nor argue your info on Hapkido. The info on TSD that I posted came third hand - from a 3rd Degree Black Black (Tang Soo Do) who researched his style. I do not know his source of the info. It’s possible that the Hapkido part of his info is incorrect.
Hwang Kee admitted that he learned from a book while working at a Japanese railroad station in Japanese occupied Manchuria. It was most likely a Shotokan karate book. The applications, training methodology, fighting strategies and approach of TSD has much more to do with Karate than with any CMA. If Tang Soo Do is influenced by CMA, it is not due to any instruction from actual CMA instructors.
If you do not beleive me, go talk to a competent CMA practitioner and compare. It’s just different.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
Hapkido was founded by Choi Yong Sool (1904-1986), who, from 1919 to the beginning of WWII, had studied Daito-ryu Aiki JuJitsu in Japan.
It is said that Choi learned this art from its headmaster Takeda Sokaku. Daito-ryu Aiki JuJitsu is one of the arts Morihei Ueshiba synthesized into Aikido. Around 1939-40 Choi returned to his native Korea and combined his kowledge of Aiki Jujitsu with the Korean system of Hwarang-Do and at a latter date Taekyon.
From what has been stated to me is that Choi never mastered the vast Aiki JuJitsu system of Daito-ryu and only got to about the first circle of mastery in the system as there are three levels of techniques.
Daito-ryu Aiki JuJitsu comes from the Tekada family and is also responsible for many of the techniques you seen in Aikido.
As to where the gathered the tools to create there family system of Daito-ryu I have no clue.
If anyone is interested, there’s a research paper by Bob Duggan covering Hwa Rang Do. There’s a section covering the relationship between Hwa Rang Do and Tang Soo Do. The site is as follows:
Those who continue to say that Tang Soo Do is modified Shotokan or other Japanese or Okinawan karate have obviously not gone farr enough.
The individual(Hwang Kee) Grandmaster who developed the Chil Sung (seven stars) form was a student of Yang Style tai Chi ChuanAnd studied it from the actual Yang Family grandmaster of the day (his name escapes me) and from what my Kwanjang has said, The Tae-Guk form of TSD is actually about 1/2 of the Yang Long Form.
I do not beleive it. Tang Soo Do does not demonstrate any understanding of the underlying principles of Tai Chi. This has to be a misrepresentation on the part of TSD. Get real, guys.
For that matter, if having half of a Tai Chi form is so cool - why not just study Tai Chi? While good Tai Chi teachers are as hard to find, they not as hard to find as Korean teachers who do not misrepresent thier history.
I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.
I guess I dont understand what there is to believe or not believe.
As a TSD and a TCMA practitioner, it is impossible NOT to see the connection. Have you seen the form? have you seen the application?
And how is it misrepresented?
Just because you dont like something does not mean it isnt so.
Could you perhaps explain your position a little more? I am unclear as to what your beef is.
I studied TSD for an admitedly short period of time (2 yrs) while living in upstate new york. While it was a nice group of people, it was simply a belt-factory and no one that I saw there (we had several 2nd and 3rd dan students, and a 4th dan ran the school) had the least little clue about ANY of the things that I now consider to be absolutely nescessary to effective practice of a martial art. Stances were never really tested for stability, There was no contact in sparring or in the 1-step sparring techniques… so if there is no contact, you never know if you are generating power or have proper anatomical alignments. Form was never taught with application. Form practice was a warm-up for sparring or for marching back and forth doing kicks. Their joint-locking techniques were simply horrible and were only taught in terms of the 1-step techniques…they were never integrated into free-sparring (giving the impression that chin-na is only valid if grabbed).
And this stuff about the Hwa Rong? God I am tired of this “we descend from a cave 2000 years ago” crap. How many civilizations have risen and fallen in 2000 years?? These guys want you to believe that their martial art survived unbroken in a country that has been a doormat for just about all of asia??? If these guys were such amazing warriors, why has korea never held a position of military dominance over anyone? Or does the path of the Wha Wrong not include actually winning? these guys are no different from Chung Moo Do, Kuk Sul Wan, or Shao-lin Do. Fake a biography, buy a belt, write an article, open a few hundred schools. (sorry for the flame!!)
I really enjoyed TSD at the time, and it was a good step in my progression as an artist, but I could never take it seriously now. I hate to be a snob, but CMA really have it over on just about anything else I have been exposed to.
It seems to me as though you had a bad experience (though you admittedly enjoyed it at the time).
“Belt Factories” exist all over… even in CMA.
I will admit openly that I feel my Praying Mantis, (not to mention my Praying mantis instructor) ar far superior to my TSD instruction. But contrary to much of what I hear people say (inthis forum as well as other places) my TSD has not had any ill effect on my CMA training, in fact it has improved my kicks tremendously due to the precision and specialized (almost TKD-ish) techniques applied in TSD.
I could never say I would not take another system seriously. It all depends on who is teachig and performing the style.
Some of the points you made were valid, but also apply to any school or McDojo out there. Forms are just coreographed movemnts without the applications of the techniques contained within them. And while I personally dont think that sparring is as necissary as many people here (and elswhere) do, I will agree that the way many clubs and schools run and teach their sparring is very misinformative and in fact dangerous, as it can give a false sense of securtity.
Belts dont mean much to me, but to teach a child they are important. It serves as a means of goal setting and a sense of accomplishment. My Sifu does not teach children until they are at least 11 or 12, as the attention span and discipline to master his style is pretty intense. Admittedly, I would be totally lost had I not had TKD, American Karate, and TSD in my background. While I still have a lot to un-learn I feel the two compliment each other, and have given me a familiarity with hard and soft that I would not otherwise have.
TSD is by far easier to get a grip on than Praying mantis, but in the hands of a skilled practitoner, does it make it any less effective?
How the individual trains is why the ball is in a legit CMA guys corner. TSD just doesn’t train the same. Kicky punchy, not a lot of know how. (and thats a quote from a TSD champion who went on to study CMA. He loved his youth in TSD, but he was thr first to admit it screwed him up more than it helped him. I loved it when he fought only using TSD - I always won, which is something that wouldn’t normally happen.)
In fact, I have repeatedly invited TKD and TSD guys to enter the ring at San Shou events, but no reply… However, the SeidoKan guys and Kyokushin guys sometiomes show, bless thier hearts.
Or in the words of Chang Tung Sheng after observing some TSD “That is rudimentary Shaolin, fit only for children.” ooohhh, was that mean? I won’t argue with Master Chang though…
Another factor is the natural attributes of an untrained but really tough fighter. Martial arts improve your odds of survival, they do not make you superman. I encourage everyone to study KMA because I find the KMA guys less dangerous than the wiley streetpunk who loves to fight.
Harsh man.
While I dont agree… I dont have to!
I dont know what a “champion” in TSD means, but the training I have seen (1 step sparring, body conditioning etc.) Is comperable to much in CMA.
Sokay though.
I just refuse to be that blatantly down on any one system. I have found TSD to be very complimentary to my CMA, and a good foundation. Remember they always go back to their roots, and that is why later sets and techniqes in TSD are nearly 100% CMA.
