What's the deal with roundhouse kicks???

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Here’s one that’s bothered me for years…where is the roundhouse kick in all the old forms? The roundhouse is one of the most basic kicks in practically every striking style…and it is usually drilled and used pretty aggressively in most Asian martial arts.

The problem is that you never see roundhouse kicks in, pre-Communist forms, or in classical Okinawan Karate katas either. I’m sure someone will come up with some example, (maybe in Choy Lay Fut forms, not sure), but the question remains. If the roundhouse is such an important kick, why isn’t it all over in the old forms?

Obviously the kick was utilized in TCMA, it’s fundamental in Sanda; and it’s the most natural, instinctive kick there is, besides the front kick. (Even untrained children will use some variation of a roundhouse kick on each other.)

The same phenomenon exists in classical Okinawan Karate. The roundhouse kick is drilled at every dojo out there, but not to be found in any traditional, (we’ll say pre-WWII,) katas. This may be because most the classical Karate material is derived from Fujian Kung Fu systems, but why is the roundhouse so important to those arts today?

Then we have the different styles of roundhouses. The two most common variations are the snapping roundhouse, where the instep is used for the kick and the leg is rechambered after kicking, (what I call the Korean roundhouse,) and the kick with the shin; with follow through and no rechambering, (the Thai roundhouse.) I’ve trained under several different senseis and shifus and have learned both those styles of kicking, depending on the teacher, not the style.

Besides those, there is also the roundhouse with the ball of the foot; and a cutting roundhouse on a 45 degree angle with the heel. Of course there’s tons of subtle differences in the “proper” execution, school to school, but we won’t worry about the technical stuff.

I’m curious as to which kick you learned as the roundhouse. (I’m sure many of you train more than one version, but there’s probably one style your school used day in and day out.)

I was told that the “traditional” Okinawan roundhouse kick, was with the ball of the foot, to the knee. In spite of the fact that 90% of Karateka, use the snapping roundhouse with the instep. I think this may be correct, (even though you don’t see the other roundhouse in the old katas either.)

Now my theory. I think Karate borrowed the “Korean” roundhouse from Tae Kwon Do. I also think most of the early Chinese MA schools in the States; (and probably the Hong Kong schools,) did the same thing. Tae Kwon Do spread more rapidly than any other MA, due to their aggressive, world-wide, franchising. The “Korean” roundhouse was also popular in the early MA movies.

I think the roundhouse has always been around in TCMA, in various incarnations, but has risen considerably in importance since the '60’s due to the reasons above.

Or maybe it was invented by Chuck Norris and he delivered each variation to the respective disciplines, while keeping the most powerful for himself.

2

Muay Thai had its version of the roundhouse kick, probably for centuries.

I heard somewhere that the Japanese roundhouse kick (mawashi-geri) was developed by Gigo(?) Funakoshi, son of Shotokan founder, Gichin. Supposedly, he designed it as a variation of the Mae-Geri (front kick), to enable one to land it at a different angle, in kumite (free-sparring). This was with the ball of the foot. Gigo supposedly liked the sporting/competitive aspect, which his father disapproved of. I don’t think that Gichin himself ever practiced the roundhouse kick. Gigo died sometime in the mid-to-late '40s, I believe. He was also responsible for making Shotokan’s stances wider/deeper, the kicks higher, and the movements more expansive. Basically, making it as it’s seen today.

For most MA, I think the instep roundhouse is a more recent development, maybe becoming more commonly practiced in the 1960s or so.

3

When I did Shorinji Kempo, we did the chambered ball of the foot roundhouse kick to the body and a kind of shin kick to the leg when in close. I’m not sure if the shin kick was part of the art though, or whether some high level practitioners that did Thai boxing threw it in as part of the mix.

I’m more familiar with this kind of motion in Shaolin as the lihe tui, a kind of full leg swing from the ground which I guess can use any part of the lower leg to connect with, or the side of the heel/foot (maybe like the okinawan karate inward crescent kick?) but Shaolin contains a whole lot of different kinds of kicks, many of which I haven’t encountered yet. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are ‘roundhouse’ kicks with the toes in there somewhere too.

4

There was a time in history when people made a living with their fighting prowess. It also seemed to be a practice in safety too. Your very life would usually depend on whether or not you lost or won a fight. Fancy high kicks and kicks that required one to use lots of dance skill and coordination were probably avoided. Only in more modern times have such kicks been developed, and for the most part it is for show and tell. TV and movies you know.

5

It does appear, but not much, not in old forms.

Why? When would you use it? Sure I know it is used in competition, but realistically it is always trumped by a kick to the nuts. To do it you have to lean your body and open your groin, even when you kick low it is simply too much risk for too little reward. It is possible but rare to finish someone with a roundhouse to the knee, much easier to finish with a snap to the groin.

Generally Kung fu uses LiHe Tui, the cresent kick, can be done with the back straight and no telegraphing. It can be used with simultaneous strike of the hand. Often for example use the ball of the foot to kick upwards into your opponents kidneys while simultaneously striking ‘Guan Er’ with the opposite hand (off hand covers groin, or grabs opponents arm), (Guan Er is a cupped hand slap to the ear). If you are wearing ‘TiSiNiuXie’ (kick bull to death shoes) then just strike with the spike.

6

The bottom line

[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1191344]realistically it is always trumped by a kick to the nuts. [/QUOTE] Ain’t everything? :stuck_out_tongue:

7

Mawashi

Round house is a derivationof the front kick it was developed in Japan , at the Tokyo University along with the Lower stances not by Gigo but by the teacher there named / Shoot cant remember. However the art of Tae Kwion do as taught as a National past time derives from Tae Gyun the trad Koreanart. And Shotokan and the Kata are derived from the Heian forms taught by Gichin Funakoshi. That is where the RH kick originated as it is thrown in Okinawan and Japanese arts. Ie the ball of the foot snapping style. The follow through kickis Thai and the invert Kick derives from Savat and is also well known in Tang Lang styles. I will think of the mans name and let you know KC

8

Correct on the karate round house.Pre TKD.TKD forms got started when Gen Choi who had studied in Japan
adapted tkd from shotokan… changing some key things.

Wing chun gung fu has a roundhouse kick but it uses the top of the instep.

9

Well I’ve certainly seen the “Karate” or “TKD” roundhouse used in many Chinese arts as well. I’ve also seen pictures from the '20’s of Shaolin practitioners kicking bags with the roundhouse, using the shin. I don’t believe the concept is new at all, just the amount of importance placed on it.

As to the practicality, a high roundhouse is hard to land and leaves you open, I’ve never liked it that much, but a low roundhouse is a devastating street fighting technique. Sure, the kick to the balls is the end all best technique, no argument there, but a shin to the thigh is very high probability, often easy to land on a fighter with experience and extremely easy on an untrained fighter. One solid roundhouse to the thigh by a conditioned shin can easily end the fight, the instep can also do a number on the leg. The low roundhouse is extremely practical and I’m sure this was known to old TCMA practitioners, since Iron Leg training was fairly common.

10

[QUOTE=GeneChing;1191347]Ain’t everything? :p[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately it is not as effective as one would think in an adrenaline filled battle. Especially if it’s for real, life or death.

When somebody accidentally knocks you in the sac, you have that quick delay then the OUCH comes. You walk it off or whatever. It hurts like a motherfukcer. But when it’s in a real fight, you can fight through it cause you have to. That’s not to say it doesn’t work, or is a bad move. It’s just not an end all solution to any violence like some people seem to think. Like forms that end with a downside backfist to the sac? Seriously? That’s your end move? I find it most effective in the middle of a combo. More of a distraction than a dropper. It sets up knees and uppercut type punches. Solar plexus is a better non lethal stopper. And you aren’t potentially ending a bloodline:D I’ve seen more people drop from being winded than nutsacked, during a fight that is.

11

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1191363]Correct on the karate round house.Pre TKD.TKD forms got started when Gen Choi who had studied in Japan
adapted tkd from shotokan… changing some key things.

Wing chun gung fu has a roundhouse kick but it uses the top of the instep.[/QUOTE]

By the way, I’m well aware Karate predates TKD, but as I said you never see the roundhouse in the old katas, but you see them in TKD forms. Hence my theory of the younger art influencing the older ones…kind of like the back and forth influence between Dylan and the Beatles…just a theory though…

12

[QUOTE=Syn7;1191390]Unfortunately it is not as effective as one would think in an adrenaline filled battle. Especially if it’s for real, life or death.

When somebody accidentally knocks you in the sac, you have that quick delay then the OUCH comes. You walk it off or whatever. It hurts like a motherfukcer. But when it’s in a real fight, you can fight through it cause you have to. That’s not to say it doesn’t work, or is a bad move. It’s just not an end all solution to any violence like some people seem to think. Like forms that end with a downside backfist to the sac? Seriously? That’s your end move? I find it most effective in the middle of a combo. More of a distraction than a dropper. It sets up knees and uppercut type punches. Solar plexus is a better non lethal stopper. And you aren’t potentially ending a bloodline:D I’ve seen more people drop from being winded than nutsacked, during a fight that is.[/QUOTE]

You shouldn’t stop because you hit them in the balls. You then hit them again somewhere else.

Right on about the backfist to the groin, awesome for setting up a serious strike but can’t be relied on alone…an open backhand slap to the nuts works real well for this too…easy to slip in and just enough distraction for the cross, palm or elbow.

Solar Plexus is beautiful, often easier to hit the ribs or kidneys with a similar, satisfying effect.

13

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1191332]Here’s one that’s bothered me for years…where is the roundhouse kick in all the old forms? The roundhouse is one of the most basic kicks in practically every striking style…and it is usually drilled and used pretty aggressively in most Asian martial arts.

The problem is that you never see roundhouse kicks in, pre-Communist forms, or in classical Okinawan Karate katas either. I’m sure someone will come up with some example, (maybe in Choy Lay Fut forms, not sure), but the question remains. If the roundhouse is such an important kick, why isn’t it all over in the old forms?

Obviously the kick was utilized in TCMA, it’s fundamental in Sanda; and it’s the most natural, instinctive kick there is, besides the front kick. (Even untrained children will use some variation of a roundhouse kick on each other.)

The same phenomenon exists in classical Okinawan Karate. The roundhouse kick is drilled at every dojo out there, but not to be found in any traditional, (we’ll say pre-WWII,) katas. This may be because most the classical Karate material is derived from Fujian Kung Fu systems, but why is the roundhouse so important to those arts today?

Then we have the different styles of roundhouses. The two most common variations are the snapping roundhouse, where the instep is used for the kick and the leg is rechambered after kicking, (what I call the Korean roundhouse,) and the kick with the shin; with follow through and no rechambering, (the Thai roundhouse.) I’ve trained under several different senseis and shifus and have learned both those styles of kicking, depending on the teacher, not the style.

Besides those, there is also the roundhouse with the ball of the foot; and a cutting roundhouse on a 45 degree angle with the heel. Of course there’s tons of subtle differences in the “proper” execution, school to school, but we won’t worry about the technical stuff.

I’m curious as to which kick you learned as the roundhouse. (I’m sure many of you train more than one version, but there’s probably one style your school used day in and day out.)

I was told that the “traditional” Okinawan roundhouse kick, was with the ball of the foot, to the knee. In spite of the fact that 90% of Karateka, use the snapping roundhouse with the instep. I think this may be correct, (even though you don’t see the other roundhouse in the old katas either.)

Now my theory. I think Karate borrowed the “Korean” roundhouse from Tae Kwon Do. I also think most of the early Chinese MA schools in the States; (and probably the Hong Kong schools,) did the same thing. Tae Kwon Do spread more rapidly than any other MA, due to their aggressive, world-wide, franchising. The “Korean” roundhouse was also popular in the early MA movies.

I think the roundhouse has always been around in TCMA, in various incarnations, but has risen considerably in importance since the '60’s due to the reasons above.

Or maybe it was invented by Chuck Norris and he delivered each variation to the respective disciplines, while keeping the most powerful for himself.[/QUOTE]

hy

wrassling

14

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1191395]You shouldn’t stop because you hit them in the balls. You then hit them again somewhere else.

Right on about the backfist to the groin, awesome for setting up a serious strike but can’t be relied on alone…an open backhand slap to the nuts works real well for this too…easy to slip in and just enough distraction for the cross, palm or elbow.

Solar Plexus is beautiful, often easier to hit the ribs or kidneys with a similar, satisfying effect.[/QUOTE]

Ever been dropped by a kick to the liver? It’s a very scary feeling because you don’t feel pain as much as a loss of bodily control. You’re legs betray you and down you go. It sucks!

15

Lo and behold! I have the answer!

You’re thinking too much of empty handed styles only. Keep in mind that up until quite recently pretty much all martial arts were either integrated weapon and hand styles, weapon primarily with some hand, or weapon only. The empty hand stuff had to assume you were fighting an armed opponent.

The roundhouse is not something you’re going to go pulling against an opponent wielding a sword, or staff, or naginata, or spear, or bolo etc. even if you got close you’re then in the wrong range.

In most of the older arts like Muay Boran which have roundhouse or spinning head kicks, anything above the waist basically, you are facing an empty handed opponent or using it as a last ditch attack because you’re trying to be unpredictable and/or out of options. Most martial arts styles coming out of that kind of weapons integrated environment won’t advocate head kicks and if they do then not as something to train often. Waist and below is the old school way of doing things so even with something like wing chun any group which has a roundhouse… It’s a modern addition.

16

My point about hitting the balls is not so much just its power, but if someone roundhouses you you can immediately counter with a kick to the balls. A shin to the thigh is not as powerful in the adrenaline either. If you are fast you can parry a roundhouse with a kick to the balls. It is also the easiest of the kicks to catch, and if your leg is caught you can’t protect your balls, if you have iron balls, the perineum and bladder are both great targets.

Also Bacon has a point here.

Also If you see a form where kicks appear seemingly too much, this may be because it is designed for wearing either steel capped shoes, or the infamous (in china) TiSiNiuXie (Kick a Bull to death shoe). This has a spike hidden on the end of the shoe. With such a weapon off course you would focus on kicks, and kicks that can be done with the toes.

[QUOTE=Syn7;1191390]
When somebody accidentally knocks you in the sac, you have that quick delay then the OUCH comes. You walk it off or whatever. It hurts like a motherfukcer. But when it’s in a real fight, you can fight through it cause you have to. That’s not to say it doesn’t work, or is a bad move. It’s just not an end all solution to any violence like some people seem to think. Like forms that end with a downside backfist to the sac? Seriously? That’s your end move? I find it most effective in the middle of a combo. More of a distraction than a dropper. It sets up knees and uppercut type punches. Solar plexus is a better non lethal stopper. And you aren’t potentially ending a bloodline:D I’ve seen more people drop from being winded than nutsacked, during a fight that is.[/QUOTE]

Its not a finisher, but often it is a control move. For example, kick in the balls, as they bend foreward (most people do), jingang pounds morter on the back of the head. There are many moves that will momentarily collapse the persons body enough for you to grab the head and push it down and hit it.

What is a downside backfist? I use a backfist moving upwards for the groin. Often a downwards moving backfist is not to the groin but attacking the back of the head of an opponent who is bent over… That is a finisher. The move before is probably one that will collapse him.

17

There were no CLASSICAL roundhouse kicks in any forms before the 20th century (typically) because, quite simply, they didn’t have any because those styles did not use it.

The round house kicked was borrowed from Muay Thai round kick in the sense that, when Karatekas saw it, they modified their existing crescent kick into a round house.
The differences were that, just like the crescent kick, the round house became an “in close” kick, as opposed to the more “distance” round kick from MT.
The round house kick owes its popularity to TKD, it was TKD that made the round house a staple of its fighting. far beyond what it was in shotokan ( where Choi MAY have learned it, but there is debate about that since some old Taekyon forms SEEM to have a round kick of sorts).
There are “triangle kicks” in some TCMA that MAY be viewed as round houses.

Forms were used as a “catalog” of techniques and the fact that the oldest forms do NOT have the round house kicks speaks volumes.

Even in TKD, you only learn the round kick (form wise) when you get into the brown/red belt level, in the form called Hwarang I think ( going on memory here).

There are no JKA or traditional okinawan forms that have mawashi-geri.

18

[QUOTE=Syn7;1191430]Ever been dropped by a kick to the liver? It’s a very scary feeling because you don’t feel pain as much as a loss of bodily control. You’re legs betray you and down you go. It sucks![/QUOTE]

YEs, and how about a shot to the kidneys? Almost the same feeling, all of a sudden you need to lie down and there’s nothing you can do to stop it.

19

In the Kung fu I learned, there are no roundhouse kicks at all.
Roundhouse kick is in none of the sets.

we played it outside the regular curriculum on the bag and in sparring, but it is not in the system(s) I learned.

20

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1191462]In the Kung fu I learned, there are no roundhouse kicks at all.
Roundhouse kick is in none of the sets.

we played it outside the regular curriculum on the bag and in sparring, but it is not in the system(s) I learned.[/QUOTE]

Kung Fu no workie when you break your leg.