What is WCK?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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What is WCK?

Is WCK just a set of methods?
if so certainly method will have to be UPDATE every era since environment Changes. No formular works all the time and forever in real life. and at the end, the original method might not be the usefull method any more, similar to one will not use the technics of 1800 to solve today’s cell phone era problem.

Is WCk is an implementation of methodology based on a Philoshophy?
If so certainly, implementation is expected to evol and can be broad and eleborate by everyone while the Philoshophy is always time independently valid.

what is WCK?

For me the core philosophy of WCK is Sun TZu the art of War. The back ground of Sun Tzu is I-Ching. and the implementation is WCK.

There is no new paradigm shift at the end of Ming dynasty, if yes, one can brought that phylosophy up. WCK is an implementation of methodology based on Philoshophy.

Buddhism’s mind cultivation/white crane/ TCM is just a part of the unique implementation named WCK.

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I like the KFO’s mercifully brief definition of WCK:

The world’s most popular form of Southern Kung Fu, Wing Chun is characterized by short range power, center-line strategy and sticking and deflecting techniques.

Safe to say that everyone must have a SLT beginning - a clear distinction from other non-WC stuffs! Well, the rest will be written by your experience and wisdom as you grow older and hopefully wiser. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

3

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]I like the KFO’s mercifully brief definition of WCK:

The world’s most popular form of Southern Kung Fu, Wing Chun is characterized by short range power, center-line strategy and sticking and deflecting techniques.

Safe to say that everyone must have a SLT beginning - a clear distinction from other non-WC stuffs! Well, the rest will be written by your experience and wisdom as you grow older and hopefully wiser. Ha! Ha!
[/B]

Hendrik,

Yours was a beautiful and thoughtful post. Thanks.

Hi Paul,

Hendrik has also convinced me that Sil Lim Tao was Wing Chun’s beginning, some amount of time before the Red Boats era circa 1850. :smiley:

But, I can’t dwell on this question because I’m still wearing a paper bag while contemplating the Chan wisdom depicted in a stop sign. :smiley:

Regards,

4

Maybe Hendrik is right about WCK’s pre Junk boat’s beginning. I don’t think it is really that relevant today as most people just want to enjoy its fruit rather than to spend long hours on its exciting historical progression from its august birth to the time of its ultimate consumption. Let give it a lasting rest.

On a side note I concur with Hendrik on Sun Tzu - WC’s strategies. This is when you know all the WC’s rules and can break them at will without losing its WC spirit. It’s all about skills and not mere forms or techniques at this high consummate level.

Regards,

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Hi Paul,

I have a new post about the history of WCK.
Now, may be you see my true color — I am actually an anti History guy. :smiley:

I want to know the structure, the people, the evolution of technics, the track record and the trend for me to predict future But not about the ORIGINAL. As in Silicon Valley, if you don’t have the technology, import it! Intel is not a CPU company at the 70’s.
Original computer is good but it only generate a few buck a day in the museum. Not the multi billions Computer market which is similar to the automobile market in 1960…

The dynamic of WCK evolution and the people involved… from GM Yip Man to You. From WSL to Leong Jan, From Jiu Cao to Cho On, from YKS to Rene, From Fung to Jim, From Leong Sheong to KJ. From LEong Bik to Joy, From Mui Yat to Tom, From Sung Nung to Amin, From Bill to Anrich…

alll these make a real Dynamic continous flow of WCK events. A product idea itself is not much until having the makert testing record…and sale record.

If I want to make a movie, I will make it so that it is vast and broad — the hollywood type insteat of the small screen of Shaws brother. and the hollywood type have lots and lots of Stars and board and deep story line. Ofcause is not Vanila Sky but Star Wars.

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Your chameleon WC skin never fails to amaze me, Hendrik! Ha! Ha! For brevity’s sake, I agree with you and am going to retype with my abbreviations on certain words what Wong was saying in an interview by Jose Fraguas (Martial Arts & Combat Sports - March 2001). It still speaks volume to me today.

Q: Do you have a martial arts philosophy?
A: There is an old Chinese saying that goes, “Courage first, strength second, and kung fu third.” To secure victory in a face to face fight with fist and kicks, one must be courageous. The courage comes from one’s own self-cultivation and is one of the purposes of trials of skills. The 2nd is strength and vigor. The KF you see in real combat is only a few actions. What counts in real combat is determination, courage, and vigour. If you are superior in this aspects, then you can often knock down your opponent with two or three simple techniques…

Q: Are you a traditionalist?
A: I firmly believe that WC is something very logical. As long as it stays logical it doesn’t matter what you call it or what you’re actually doing. If it is logical, if it works, use it! Make the art your slave, and never allow the art be your master.

Q: Why do you think WC is so popular around the world?
A: I think Bruce Lee contributed a lot to that! But if a martial art system is not logical, simple, and useful it will disappear. It’s just a matter of time. Think about the many countries and political systems that don’t exist anymore. If there is something lacking in meaning and purpose it will definitely fade away. WC is growing all over the world - so that should tell you something.

Regards,

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WCK is a martial artifact primarily from Foshan, China. Many people tinker with it today for fun, dueling, and leisure practice.

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I can see why YOU would think Wing Chun needs some evolving. That has been made clear to me by many things including the level of understanding made present in many posts.

What is unclear to me is why you think you can make such broad statements as if you actually have some knowledge of the other Wing Chun knowledge out there. Then you backstep by throwing a little humor into the mix.

Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy.

Alex

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What is unclear to me is why you think you can make such broad statements as if you actually have some knowledge of the other Wing Chun knowledge out there. ----D

This is a discussion forum. Anyone can make thier claim. and if you don’t like it. then present your case for discussion. It is about the subject not about the person. you got it?

As for the knowledge of the other wing chuns, this is a great question for you. How much do you know about other WCK? how many masters have you learn the art of WCK from?

Then you backstep by throwing a little humor into the mix.----D

Hahahahaha, what backsteP? read my post up there if you don’t agree with me, then you can argue. why frame me?

My advise for you is that focus on the subject of discussion instead of having pre-judgement and look at the whole world against you.

Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements—D

How much do you know and understand about Chinese Culture?
HOw much do you know and understand about Chinese evolution of military philosophy? How many Chinese Military Classic have you read and understood?

Answer these questions above before you draw any conclusion.

As whether I fool or not fool others. the history will judge me. as for your claim, history will also give you a fair judgement.

AS FOR YOUR CLAIM ABOUT ME FOOLING OTHERS. HAHAHA, i CAN POINT TO THE EXACT CHAPTER/S AND PHRASE WHICH WCK IS USING AS A PART OF CORE PHILOSHOPY. Now, you have to dig out your evidents that I fool others. otherwise, you are speaking without support, but based on your personal view right?

. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy. --D

Sure you can think that way.
Again, sorry this is a country of freespeach and encourage different point of view. You have different view, post it up.
Why don’t you post your story or history or HIS -story?

I sense you have lots of fear whenever I post anything. May be you want to find out why do you have such a fear?

and you are not baiting me here to tell you which chapter/s of Sun Tzu so that you can continous on to evol your WCK isn’t it?
:smiley:

read what WSL said, and then think about it.

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evolving?

Life is about change.

Evolution occurs across all species.

Our knowledge across all areas of human endeavors continues to advance and evolve.

Why should Wing Chun Kuen be any different?

Or do we think we are somehow the Amish version of Fighting somehow frozen 250-300 years ago?

The journey here is about acquisition and refinement of martial skill. The difference to be concerned about is entropy vs evolution.

The improper or incomplete transmission of skill is more what we need to guard against.

We have unprecedented access to vast amounts of systems and approaches to martial combat which were not available to the founders of the art. We know more about the human body, training regimens, approaches to kinesiology, physical conditioning etc.

Given access to those systems and their movements should give our teachers better ways to teach us to deal with them–because they are no longer secret or unknown to us.

If nothing else, we should be able to devise even MORE effective ways of transmitting knowledge about the core concepts of the system and ways to rigorously crosscheck the transmission.

We have immensely better ways to record the ways of movement, structure and form of our teachers than was ever possible over the previous centuries.

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[As for the knowledge of the other wing chuns, this is a great question for you. How much do you know about other WCK? how many masters have you learn the art of WCK from?]

I’ve studied under two different systems. I found that enough for me to see the vast diferences in concept and understanding. I still however, would never speak for anyone except myself.

[My advise for you is that focus on the subject of discussion instead of having pre-judgement and look at the whole world against you.]

No pre-judgement here… I read it, re-read it, then came to MY OWN conclusion that it was nonsense.

[How much do you know and understand about Chinese Culture?
HOw much do you know and understand about Chinese evolution of military philosophy? How many Chinese Military Classic have you read and understood?]

I’ve read the “Art of War” as has any college student who has taken any humanties courses. I just think it’s much more practical and less abstract then what your writings prescribe.

I’ve also read enough philosophy to know that it’s better to have understood one book then to have read many… kinda like Wing Chun, in that it’s better to really understand the nature of one move, and fully realize all it’s uses, then to be constantly searching for more moves, updates, and “improvements”

Planet WC

Life is about change, but logic, and absolute truth is not. You can bring about the benefits of modern technology to training etc… but for me all that just clutters and obscures the simplicity. I put my money on an old master stuck out in the woods training anyday over a modern technologically enhanced martial artist. For me it’s all about time, everything else is a distraction to my training.

PS. by absolute truth, I was referring to the laws of physics

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Originally posted by duende
[B]I can see why YOU would think Wing Chun needs some evolving. That has been made clear to me by many things including the level of understanding made present in many posts.

What is unclear to me is why you think you can make such broad statements as if you actually have some knowledge of the other Wing Chun knowledge out there. Then you backstep by throwing a little humor into the mix.

Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy.

Alex [/B]

Duende:

Not sure what you were trying to achieve by this post… it reads as though you are hitting out at Phenix. Well, just know that this is a discussion thread, and one of the things that Phenix does often (and does well) is throw out somewhat generic, yet debatable topics to open up discussions. Phenix is Asian, I believe (and so am I), and so he will likely share a lot of his philosophical thoughts (I tend to do the same) with others on this thread. And very often, these discussions result in very eye-opening thoughts and information, regardless of the background, lineage, or experience of the posters. Oftentimes, one would not necessarily agree or disagree with certain points, but by sharing one’s viewpoint based on his/her own WC background, we are able to gain some insight into something new, and sometimes refreshing thoughts. As you yourself pointed out, you have studied under two different systems and can appreciate the vast differences that can occur between systems, and this is the reason why a lot of us come to this forum is to share our own experiences and to learn more about those from outside our school/system, not to mentioning adding to our knowledge of the system.

I guess my point is that these discussion threads would be much more enlightening without bickering, politics, attacks, etc. Debating is not the same as attacking, and is always welcome, for very often it is through debates and being inquisitive that we end up adding to our own understanding and knowledge.

Look forward to reading more about your thoughts on how the different systems differ.

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And by the way, FYI… I don’t personally know Phenix, other than reading his posts here like everyone else. There is no particular reason for my previous post or the possibility that some of you may wonder why I appeared to be defending Phenix, other than the fact that I felt there was an attack on him that was not really necessary. If there was no attack there, and it was just a case that I misunderstood and took stuff out of context, then pardon my poor English and interpretation, and I do apologize for misunderstanding.

I am not here often, but the times that I have been here, I have found a lot of the discussion threads interesting (although some of the bickering tend to make it disappointing at the same time). I don’t necessarily agree with Phenix all the time, whether from a philosophical or Wing Chun point of view, and that is OK, because all of us are entitled to our own opinions and ideas. Our knowledge is based on our own individual experiences and background, and unless two people are from identical backgrounds and possess identical personalities, it is likely that there will be differences between the two of them. What I do appreciate, however, is that he does take the time and energy to speak his mind and to share his thoughts with others. Likewise, there are a lot of others who do the same, which make these threads worth visiting.

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FWIW—

  1. On Sun Tzu. There is no question on the impact of The Art of War on Chinese Miltary theory. But even though it’s context was the battlefield it has had an impact on individual matial training as well. It seems to me- ofcourse IMHO and all that- that as battle field arts evolved- one outgrowth was the development of close quarters work. It is here that with gradual pruning emerges good wing chun-it assumes close quarters individual contact work… early shuai chao(?) also assumed close quarters work but didnt have the variety of the body weapons of later wing chun.

The YGKYM and the varations in footwok, centerline theory and positioning as alternatives to too much dependence on muscle strength, proper breathing and tactile control and timing work-some form of chi sao—put things synergistically intp the core where Sun Tzu’s insights provide new meanings.
After all wing chun did not evolve in medieval Europe- general evolution didnt create it…though it has spread by leaps and bounds.

  1. On history for its own sake— who learned from whom… generally I pass.

  2. But historical insights that can point towards what we could do-
    is another thing and can be helpful. Like WSL’s story on running into and havinga problem with a low attack. Its helpful to practice in making sure that different angles are covered in our reflex system.And as we encounter people who like being on the floor-
    one needs to prepared-without abndoning ship.

  3. On evolution. Of course things evolve. But therein can lurk the shadows of dogma. Things do get lost. Early (Asian) Indian steel making techniques - basis of the Damascus blade-was lost for a while. Some unique Pueblo pottery making methods were lost for a while.

History is not always a story of linear progress. In TCMA for instance— after the first two generations or so of Yang style taichi- some things were lost— including the training and capacity for real fajing and explosive power, The Chens in their village went about their business except for some folks who learned from Chen Fake, Then afterthe Cultural revolution real martail arts came out of hiding here and there- and lots of folks are imitating or trying to imitate first class fajing…
saying-oh yeah we have that too when they didnt.

So through WW2 and the Marxist revolution and the escape to HK /Macao Ip Man was fairly close chested about the details of his art. Ever so often in the talk or recollection of the next generation by comparison and deduction some additional insights are still forthcoming. If one is clear and has the right reason- not changing is foolish and not adapting things for ones own persona is also foolish but it’s notalways transmissible to some one else Someone who gets by with strangth rather than skill may not transmit his skills toa weak person…Similarly not being open to insights from the past when it happens is foolish too.

So where do I end up- in the middle way- but it traversing athe middle way aint easy.

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Yuan… good post.

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Thanks NTC.

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NTC,

I think the purpose of my post was very clear. I don’t agree with the main premise of this thread. On top of that I feel that there is extremely biased information being spread here, and I think it’s important for any novice or newcomer here to know that what’s being presented in this thread is in no way status quo. I’m not the only one who feels this way.

I do however sincerely appreciate the graciousness of your post.

btw, I do not mean to give the impression that I do not believe the “Art of War” is apparant in WC theory. I just disagree with the initial way it was linked with WC

afwiw… the WSL story does not apply to my system, good story nonetheless.

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Ah… I see where you were getting at. Thanks for the clarification.

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Thanks NTC and Joy,

FACTs:

1, The Heaven, Human, Earth is a concept from I-Ching. it is not CHAN!

2, Sun Tzu, is also Chatagorize in Tao, Heanven, Earth, Method, Human. IT is derive down from the I-Ching.

3, For he who not just read Sun Tzu and thinking he knows Sun Tzu. There is a saying. Before sun Tzu Sun Tzu, after Sun Tzu Sun Tzu, which means the wisdom before sun tzu’s time was kept in sun tzu . the wisdom after sun Tzu’s time has already said in Sun Tzu. There is a big different read a book and attent a chinese class in college and thinking knowing Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu’s study was clasified as BIn Cia or the military expertise. Thus, one needs to have teacher who master Sun Tzu, otherwise, even the term were not translated properly.

4, Chinese use “still shape” and “dynamic momentum” as the main keys of war. as example, As applied in WCK, in general, “shape” as we see in WCK or white Crane WCK of fujian the Center Line theory. "Potential " is the chain punch.
feel and avoid the head on is also the key both for WCK and Sun Tzu. Thus, for past 2000 years nothing has changes philosophically but evol in the implementation of application technics.

Appliying the shape and momentum,

What was post here, none of them is STABING from the BACK.

the “shape” is center on center front.
as the Chinese said, when the title is proper and the words is proper.

the "dynamic momentum " of The trandition of Chinese culture, to I-Ching to Sun TZu to today’s WCK. it is a single flow with evol and adaptation of application to fit every different era.

If anyone has different view, certainly it is great to brought it up for constructive discussion.
shooting the messengers or getting politics is not appreciated. In fact, don’t make the fool of oneself, attacking the person before even clear about what is going on the issue. AS Confusian says, " if know said so, if don’t know said so."

I personally understand there are dream which will be broken when the cards where open one by one. However, when the cards open, one will get more then what is in the dream. Because, dream is an illusion one never reach. but when the cards of philosophy, methodology open up. then one can realize the “dream” in reality.

call me strange or anything. Can I be right or wrong? sure. I am no god. But then, it is about the issue not about the people. I welcome everyone’s different views, without that WCK will not grow well in 21 century. It is about team work and keep evol the methodology. not any original or any oldest …

Evol or obsolete. But, one thing I want to stress, by based the philosophy and methodology in Sun Tzu, White crane, TCM,…
WCK will not vanished. IF WCK is based just only on a fomular or a method. then WCK will be vanished.

WATER HAS NO UNCHANGE DYNAMIC MOMENTUM. ARMY HAS NO CONSTANT POTENTIAL SHAPE.

ARe we going to violate our own core philosophy ---- Chinese ART of WAR --sun tzu?

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Well… cool… seems like we are all cleared up. And like both Phenix and Duende are indicating, there are differences in WC as it is practiced today, and everyone’e opinion is being welcome in this thread. As Phenix put it, without addressing all the different views out there and learning from there, it would be difficult for WC to grow into the 21st century.

But at the same time, Duende also has a good point that as we share information, remember that we all have good information about WC, and who is to say who is right and who is wrong? In fact, based on our own training, we are all respectfully correct. However, it is also important to indicate that these are personal opinions and not universal truth/standard about WC, otherwise the newcomer/newbie might be given wrong impressions of the art. There is something to be said about this point.

And I hope no one sees me as being righteous, or anything like that, cause I am not. I just am really enjoying this thread, and I think it is a very interesting topic of discussion on what WCK is perceived as from each of our own points of view. And I hope everyone is encouraged to come out and share their own perceptions.

That said, let the discussion continue…