What is WCK?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

also has a good point that as we share information, remember that we all have good information about WC, and who is to say who is right and who is wrong? --NTC

IMHO, there is history and His-story. there is proper way to disagree compare with attacking people instead of focus on the subject.

Information doesnt means fact. and facts doesn’t means relevant. we need to have accurate thinking training. IMHO.

In fact, based on our own training, we are all respectfully correct.—ntc

What do you think? if we say everyone is respectfully correct disregard how they want to drive in highway? :smiley:

However, it is also important to indicate that these are personal opinions and not universal truth/standard about WC, otherwise the newcomer/newbie might be given wrong impressions of the art. —NTC

Thus, I always post and Challenge people post thier fact and relevant fact and discuss with facts.

I post my points of I-Ching, Sun Tzu, Shape, momentum, center line, chian punch…
NOw it is Alex’s turn to explaim why the following is concluded this way. I love to see his factual evidents to prove me as what the statement says. I love people to prove me wrong and so I learn something.

“Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy.”

I am sure my worst enemy until I attain BUddha hood. :smiley: that you are right!

22

I am very sorry to inform you, Hendrik, that you are absolutely wrong! WC comes more from The book of 5 rings than the “Art of War”. Let look objectively at the revered science of numerology. 5 rings = 5 elements = 5 petals of Ng Mui’s plum flower. Why, we even have ring training and star pattern stepping! You yourself even talked of the 5 bodies! 5 is really a good WC number. Give me a Five?

P.S. Plenty of sound philosophy and strategies on top of that! It’s time that we recall Sun Tzu and put Mushahi in his rightful place in the WC state. Ha! Ha!

23

Hendrik,

Do you know your own system of Wing Chun? If you don’t even know your own system, how can you ask such a general question of the whole Wing Chun Clan?

If you say you know your system, what is your qualification? Every question I’ve ever seen you ask is so general it starts to border on ignorant. Asking “What is Wing Chun Kuen” is like asking, “What is Chinese?” Wing Chun could be a tool for combat, a hobby, a tool for spiritual enlightenment, etc. It could even be a unique product of a certain culture at one time and place in human history.

In your initial post, “Is WCk is an implementation of methodology based on a Philoshophy.” What is meant by Philosophy? What is meant by methodology? What are the specifics of the implementation? I suggest you post some technical information on your system so we can compare specifics instead of talking about generalities. How does your system compare to the Yip Man system?

You wrote, “No formular works all the time and forever in real life.” Having a background in science, I find this statement puzzling. There are many formulas that work “all the time and forever in real life.” Civil Engineers use formulas created in Newtonian Physics based on rules established centuries ago. I suppose it is possible to build a bridge using Quantum Physics but that’s quite a bit over-engineered give the scale of bridges. Regardless of specifics, your statement is false.

This type of general discussion could go on forever without getting anywhere. Your system of Wing Chun is less well known; why don’t you begin by talking about what you know?

What paradigm shift are you talking about in the Ming Dynasty? Isn’t that just grave-site investigation, as you said elsewhere?

Also, the more I read your posts the more I see a seemingly hidden agenda in your posting and in the direction of your questioning. For all your talk of humility, your ego is fairly easy to read.

24

Hi Paul,

sure, great idea. dig into it you might be right. who knows?

25

Do you know your own system of Wing Chun? If you don’t even know your own system, how can you ask such a general question of the whole Wing Chun Clan?
If you say you know your system, what is your qualification? —W

This is an architype of attacking the messenger not focus on the topic.

Every question I’ve ever seen you ask is so general it starts to border on ignorant. Asking “What is Wing Chun Kuen?is like asking, “What is Chinese??Wing Chun could be a tool for combat, a hobby, a tool for spiritual enlightenment, etc. It could even be a unique product of a certain culture at one time and place in human history.—W

Sure it is general.

Everyone can has thier own definition and that is ok. But atleast there is a definition.

If there is a not definition, then one cannot answer the general question. not to mention the details one.

But general is not gray or undefine or can be freely define, right?

In your initial post, “Is WCk is an implementation of methodology based on a Philoshophy.?What is meant by Philosophy? What is meant by methodology? What are the specifics of the implementation? I suggest you post some technical information on your system so we can compare specifics instead of talking about generalities. How does your system compare to the Yip Man system?-----W

I-Ching is a philosophy. Whether you use coins or randam number generator to exercise the IChing is methodology.

All WCK do SLT/SNT. right?

You wrote, “No formular works all the time and forever in real life.?Having a background in science, I find this statement puzzling. There are many formulas that work “all the time and forever in real life.?Civil Engineers use formulas created in Newtonian Physics based on rules established centuries ago. I suppose it is possible to build a bridge using Quantum Physics but that’s quite a bit over-engineered give the scale of bridges. Regardless of specifics, your statement is false. —W

IF I tell you I have a war formular to win all the war since 2000 years ago. will you believe me?

if I tell you I have a fighting formular for you to beat all the Thai Boxer, BJJ, and Kyokushin, and BOxer… will you believe me?

Is such things exist in the world?

Chinese WAR classic said ---- WATER HAS NO UNCHANGE DYNAMIC MOMENTUM. ARMY HAS NO CONSTANT POTENTIAL SHAPE.
YOur enermy yesterday is not your enermy tommorow. (thus, the same method will rarely work twice.)

so you think those War artist 2000 years ago is smarther then us or dumber then us?

Or you praise the ancestors of WCK who has this philoshophy of CHANGE ;
and design in the methodology of instantaneous and spontenous sensing to the art to make WCK very adaptive and fluid and flexible ;
instead of following this type of kiu to against that type of kiu… but has no sense on what happen under the stream of energy flow?

the above show clearly the link of IChing philosophy, Art of WAR, and WCK. don’t you agree? IF not please present your model.

This type of general discussion could go on forever without getting anywhere. Your system of Wing Chun is less well known; why don’t you begin by talking about what you know? —W

general is about bringing everyone to aware what is the basic.
I would like to know the general before lost in trees of unrelated imformation.

he who is clear about general and details can see a full word from a small flower. he who is not clear about the general always lost in the branches of the trees. What do you think about this saying?

What paradigm shift are you talking about in the Ming Dynasty? Isn’t that just grave-site investigation, as you said elsewhere?—W

since 2000 years ago, the time of Sun Tzu, the philosophy of ART of WAR were form there is no paradigm shift in MIng dynasty.
In fact, the Ming general lost to the Japanese pirate. until Gen Chi Chi Kuan reform .

Also, the more I read your posts the more I see a seemingly hidden agenda in your posting and in the direction of your questioning. For all your talk of humility, your ego is fairly easy to read. ----W

sure
there is a hidden agenda. that agenda is to educate everyone include me from discussion.

as for ego, Buddha said " heaven and earth, “I” am the most respectable.
is that an ego of the buddha? or it is a mirror which show the reader’s ego?

Thank you for your opion, and my suggestion to you is focus on the topic not on me. I am sure you agree, right?

there will be a paradigm shift, when it is not about YOu or me. but bring up the reason to discuss, agree or disagree in a reasonable way focus to the topic. ---- WHAT IS WCK?

26

IMHO, there is history and His-story. there is proper way to disagree compare with attacking people instead of focus on the subject.

There is a difference between a personal attack, and questioning the process of argument that leaves to various claims being made.

It is dirty pool to try to deflect criticism of unproven assertions and leaps of faith being presented as scholarship and logical argument, by claiming that the persons who do so are “attacking me personally”.

That’s just another twist on the ad hominem attack which you protest about so vehemently. They are criticisng your atatements, not your character.

There is also no shortage of personal attacks, veiled or otherwise, going in both directions from what I see. You have more or less said that without a Chinese background and many years of study no one can understand Sun Tzu. A statement such as this automatically begs the question of “well, who are you to say that?”

Anyone who tries to take the high moral ground needs to examine his own statements, logic, and actions before trying to lecture others thereon.

BTW, I lay no claim to any high moral ground. I am a ba$tard sometimes. I just think most of those who appoint themselves as moderators of the discussions on here have some way to go before they come close to the standards they demand of others.

27

off topic

originally posted by phenix
For me the core philosophy of WCK is Sun TZu the art of War. The back ground of Sun Tzu is I-Ching. and the implementation is WCK.
This is your opinion.
originally posted by phenix
Buddhism’s mind cultivation/white crane/ TCM is just a part of the unique implementation named WCK.
This too is your opinion. Once again preaching about facts and giving only opinion

originally posted by phenix
My advise for you is that focus on the subject of discussion instead of having pre-judgement and look at the whole world against you.

originally posted by phenix
This is a discussion forum. Anyone can make thier claim. and if you don’t like it. then present your case for discussion. It is about the subject not about the person. you got it?

originally posted by phenix
I sense you have lots of fear whenever I post anything. May be you want to find out why do you have such a fear?
This is your double standard! Again preaching about staying on topic then moving to a personal attack.
originally posted by phenix
Thus, for past 2000 years nothing has changes philosophically but evol in the implementation of application technics.
Then when you try and provide facts you argue against them yourself, for what you consider evolution could easily be interpreted as improper use of sound philosiphical ideas that have not changed for over 2000 years. This is why I agree with Alex when he says you are your own worst enemy.

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[QUOTE]

There is also no shortage of personal attacks, veiled or otherwise, going in both directions from what I see. You have more or less said that without a Chinese background and many years of study no one can understand Sun Tzu. A statement such as this automatically begs the question of “well, who are you to say that?”---- An

Why don’t you post the following before post your opinion? :smiley:

“Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy.”

Back to the Topic,

What is WCK for you ?

29

quote:

originally posted by phenix
For me the core philosophy of WCK is Sun TZu the art of War. The back ground of Sun Tzu is I-Ching. and the implementation is WCK.

This is your opinion. --C

Sure, that is my opinion and I back it up with factual data.

quote:

originally posted by phenix
Buddhism’s mind cultivation/white crane/ TCM is just a part of the unique implementation named WCK.

This too is your opinion. Once again preaching about facts and giving only opinion --C

Certainly, this is my thesis and I again Back my thesis with factual evidents.

quote:

originally posted by phenix
My advise for you is that focus on the subject of discussion instead of having pre-judgement and look at the whole world against you.

quote:

originally posted by phenix
This is a discussion forum. Anyone can make thier claim. and if you don’t like it. then present your case for discussion. It is about the subject not about the person. you got it?

quote:

originally posted by phenix
I sense you have lots of fear whenever I post anything. May be you want to find out why do you have such a fear?

This is your double standard! Again preaching about staying on topic then moving to a personal attack. -C

If I throw a sun punch at you and expect you to stand there so that I can hit you with my set up. will you do that?
and If my punch didn’t hit you and I complain that you are not fair you are double standard. what will you say? :smiley:

By the way, Why don’t you post this before what you post up there? so that it is chronologically correct?

“Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy.”

quote:

originally posted by phenix
Thus, for past 2000 years nothing has changes philosophically but evol in the implementation of application technics.

Then when you try and provide facts you argue against them yourself, for what you consider evolution could easily be interpreted as improper use of sound philosiphical ideas that have not changed for over 2000 years. This is why I agree with Alex when he says you are your own worst enemy.

Question: What is the Philosophy of TaiJichuan?
Ans : TAI JI

Question: What is the implementation of application technics of TaijI Chuan?
Ans: Chen, Yang, Wu, WOO, Cheng…

Question: Does the philosophy of TaiJi Changes since the exist of I-Ching?
Ans: what do you think? The definition of TAIJI changes?

You can agree with whoever you choose based or not based on any facts. that is ok. But there is a may be, may be you both don’t understand what I am posting?

Back to the topic instead of spend the bandwidth on me.

Question: What is the philosophy of WCK?
Ans: ??? ?

30

Bang on, Canglong. Exactly right.

"Why don’t you post the following before post your opinion? "

"“Maybe you can fool others here by referencing the “Art of War” to give credibility to your statements. But for me, the more you post, the more I think you are your own worst enemy.”

Duh, Because someone else already posted it, so it would be redundant. Plus, it’s peripheral to my argument. Why do YOU think I should post it?

“What is WCK for you ?”

A traditional Chinese martial art. IMO, culture and religion neutral in the modern age. The present and future of it is FAR more important than the past.

31

Originally posted by anerlich
[B]

“What is WCK for you ?”

A traditional Chinese martial art. IMO, culture and religion neutral in the modern age. The present and future of it is FAR more important than the past. [/B]

Great, certainly no one can go back to live in the past.

and what is the philosophy behind WCK As equal to TaiJi of TaiJichuan according to you?

32

WCK is a strange thing, it is probably an alien invention :smiley:

  • first, it has that strange so called “Yutt Tan Saam Fook” movement that have many WCners puzzled for years, still won’t have a firm idea why it is there and what it is for.

  • in Chi Sau, many times teachers ask you to keep the contact points near the wrists, but in fact a bigger power drive is from the elbow. So don’t be fooled by the contact point, the elbow behind is what you shall watch out for. Don’t be fooled by what you see, there is a bigger conspiracy behind, hehehehe…

  • we may entertain the opponent with one type of hand (Wu), while using a different type (Bong) to attack. So multi-dimension is the key.

  • there is a saying called “Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail). It is like when you ask Hendrik how the hell does Sun Tzu get involve in the discussion, then Hendrik returns with a question saying “What is WCK to you?”.

  • By throwing that “What is WCK to you” question back to you, he then keeps to the center of his thread. His tail is still aiming at your center.

  • so Sun Tzu or no Sun Tzu, we still use all these so call strategies and mind games which are slowly becoming culture and religion neutral.

  • and on top of that WCK has this strange YJKYM the neutral stance which have many WCner’s puzzled for years and still want to talk about it in forums…

33

Hendrik,

Do you ever feel like Winnie the pooh trying to explain to the swarm of angry bees that you are harmless really when you touch their honey? Some of your stuffs are just too close for comfort! Hope you don’t take me seriously. Go, Arnold!

Regards,

34

See… I’m not the only offended by blanket generalities, and obscure qualifying of fact.

But then again that’s how you win a governorship. Right Paul???

Woseung,

Thanks so much for your post. It helped me define better some similar thoughts going through my head.

35

Yylee,

You make WC sound like a game. With all your desriptions of it’s mysterys and conspiracys.

I don’t have time for that… For that kind of entertainment, frankly I’d much rather go read a book. Maybe that’s why you find Hendrik’s posts to be amusing.

For me WC is primarily hardcore physics based martial science. I don’t need to romanticize it.

36

Comment & Answer

Duende & Woseung, I’m with you on the shared perspective. (sorry for the absence here as of late…) To give MY answer to the original question of “What is WCK?”…

WCK represents the perfect harmony (balance/union) of:

  • Combat: self defense,
  • Health: Hei Gung/Faat Ging, and
  • Philosophy: Chan Buddhism (Taoism, Confucianism, & Buddhism)…
    …where each of the three areas are consistently reflected in each other. WCK is a path where we are taught to better understand oneself through an objective approach to reality - ultimately leading oneself to a true identity. As far as I know, there are only two systems in the world that hold to these three areas.

All of the how’s and why’s and what’s to this answer I do not think are tolerable by the creator of this thread, so I’ll leave it at that. Thumbs up Duende and Woseung!

37

Good diversity of opinions.

But FWIW, I dont think that one has to know much about
Chan Buddhism to do wing chun kuen.

Core Chan epistemology has some parallel to but is not the same as daoism. Chan’s origins are in Dhyan ( a specific mahayana approach). In its pure form it rejects violence and the killing arts…
urges people not to enter even the profession of the butcher.

There are different mixes of ideologies in Chinese history- neo confucianism, legalism, etc. Generalizations on Chan, etc—not so simple.

Wing chun is a “gate” for learning “natural” self defense by making more and more efficient use of what one has. Some wing chun folks by staying the course can learn other things about life.

Wing chun began in a Chinese setting. In differring proportions -
buddhism, daoism, military theory, theories of the body(TCM)
are interwoven in that setting and legacy. Technology transfer can vary with understanding of that setting and teaching, learning and practice..

38

ch-ch-ch-changes

I’ve only been practicing WC for a short time, but I’ve arrived at the opinion that WC is all about change. How to change and how to react to changes. To me, the WC system is a “roadmap”. Follow the road map, i.e. do the forms and san saos with the correct theory and the correct intent, and you will be able to deal with any type of change. Changes in combat, changes in life, changes in the all things in the universe.

That being said, I don’t think the roadmap (WC system) itself is subject to change. It was perfected by those much smarter than I, long ago. By changing the system you lose it’s essence. The system doesn’t need to be changed – it has everything that is needed. It is only when the practitioner fails to grasp the system in its entirety that they feel the need to alter it. The consequence is that the knowledge they pass on is forever incomplete because it is not true WC.

To learn and pass on WC you must remove all notions of self. Once you have truly learned the system you may apply it (change it?) for yourself, but you are still obligated (to one’s sifu, and to the system itself) to pass it on exactly as it was taught to you, thus retaining the essence of the system.

Extremely effective self-defense is, in a manner of thinking, a by-product of correct training. It is not the goal. True Wing Chun is the journey, not the destination.

Just my two cents. :slight_smile:

39

Originally posted by yylee
[B]

  • there is a saying called “Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail).

It is like when you ask Hendrik how the hell does Sun Tzu get involve in the discussion, then Hendrik returns with a question saying “What is WCK to you?”.

[/B]

YY,

Do you know where the “Gum Tau Gutt Mai” (he presses your head you lift your tail) philoshophy is from? hahahaha

read these

  1. Those who were called skillful leaders of old knew
    how to drive a wedge between the enemy’s front and rear;
    to prevent co-operation between his large and small divisions;
    to hinder the good troops from rescuing the bad,
    the officers from rallying their men.

  2. The skillful tactician may be likened to the
    shuai-jan. Now the shuai-jan is a snake that is found
    in the ChUng mountains. Strike at its head, and you
    will be attacked by its tail; strike at its tail, and you
    will be attacked by its head; strike at its middle,
    and you will be attacked by head and tail both.

how the hell does Sun Tzu get involve in the discussion?

then Hendrik returns with above quate from Sun Tzu and a question saying after read the above and thinking about the implementation such as: be it a snake or an arm of Tan and Bong… it doesnt matter, well, “what is WCK for you” ?

as it was said,

¥ý®]¤l®]¤l, «á®]¤l®]¤l.

Before Sun tzu (collected in) sun tzu,
after Sun Tzu (has been said in (suntzu)

hahahahahaha Wing Chun Kuen.
See, I get very specific. and I have not yet to see a post get so specific. Ok Let’s time it, one second, two second… when will anyone post anything real specific to back up your opinions?

.

40

Originally posted by duende
[B]Yylee,

For me WC is primarily hardcore physics based martial science. I don’t need to romanticize it. [/B]

the conspiracy lies between the contact point and the elbow, it is called a “lever” - hardcore physics right? :wink: