what happen??? we had a good debate...why the closing...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

what the hell are you talking about

“By the way, posting your sugary sweet response after I said I was done in an attempt to make me look bad is as typical a liberal tactic as using only emotional arguments”

i dont even know what you are talking about, but anyway, just stop posting now, if you are going to keep posting like this.

anyway,what fact do you want me to prove?
hatred toward america by the rest of the world
almost all of the middle east
the people of india, pakistan, afghanistan, some people of china, indonesia, of course there are many more in this area.

in europe i know there are large groups of people in france that have negative feeling toward us.

Do i have to name more. How about the many countries and tribes in africa, do you think they think highly of our gov’t?

South America is another example.

I dont know what else you want me to say, this is all common knowledge, and most reasonable people would think so.

What you said about iraq’s leading cause of death being heart disease and diebetes, i dont beleive to be common knowledge. did a teacher tell you that or something? did you read it somewhere?

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

22

Who exectly came up with the 5,000 dead Iraqi babies a month figure? It must have been an impartial thrid party because I know people wouldn’t be stupid enough to believe what Saddam says. Anybody know?

One thing I do know that you can find in any history book is that Middle Eastern terrorism and war is far older than the United States. The only thing the United States has provided is radicals with a target to point to and say “they are evil and they are the reason for much suffering” It can’t be coincidence that many men are influenced and in-turn give these radicals leaders great power. Obviously Bin Laden isn’t after power. He only wants to recreate the Ottoman Empire…

You have to remember the kind of people we are dealing with. We are so lucky here in the United States to have such an innocent idealogical view ofthe rest of the world. If a country is impoverished, it’s because of the government and not because those poor people feed into the type of behavior that impoverishes a nation, right? Somalia was a great example. If you ask a Somalian from one clan if they want peace. They will answer something to the point of “Sure. We all want peace.” But then if you ask them if peace is acceptable if the other clans are allowed to be an equal part of the ruling government, they’d look at you like you had two heads and say the other clans should be destroyed.

It’s a completely different mind set in countries like these. We can’t apply our beliefs and our values to their situation. I think this is a mistake we all make.

23

How do you know about these large groups of people that dislike Americans? I’ve met with no hate in any of my travels. I’ve met with some rudeness, but you’ll find that anywhere you go. Believe it or not, but any French person I’ve ever asked help from overseas has been more than helpful and very nice. I’ve never once sensed any animosity when they found out I was an American? Mostly, they’d ask me about where I’m from exactly and be interested in what I say my city is like.

The same goes for everywhere I’ve ever travelled. I’ve never met with hate or animosity; just curiousity. My aunt lived in India for 9 years and she gave birth to two children over there. She was never worried about her children’s safety or her own. She’s always said the Indian people themselves are friendly. Doesn’t sound like American haters to me. She even went to 4th of July parties there which Indians, Brits, and Americans attended. Something tells me you wouldn’t find Bin Laden’s people at one of those.

How much of what you are saying is heresay? How much is actually coming from your own personal experiences or from sources other than a few college lecturers or stereotypes?

24

most of these people dont HATE americans. They do not agree with U.S. govt policy which results in negative feelings toward america.

a lot of countries do hate america right now though, ecspecially muslim countries. And considering that islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, that is a significant amount of countries that disagree with our policies.

Indian people are very friendly, just like any other people, including americans. Most of us treat everyone with respect, even someone from Iraq. That doest mean we dont disagree with Iraq’s gov’t policy.

but anyway, maybe im wrong, all these people probably love us, i would love to be in pakistan right now, or indonesia.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

25

Sorry silumkid, but the liberals have no corner on the market for emotional arguments as the substitute for debate. Conservative politicians use the exact same tactic, just the details are different. Other than that, I’m not in disagreement with you, I just think the us and them, conservative and liberal argument is part of the problem. Our system works because of diversity. Take away the conservatives, and the liberals might go overboard on providing for everyone, and people would have no incentive to work hard, take away the liberals and the conservatives might go overboard on the support of business over the individual, and we have fascism. True, the conservative viewpoint soesn’t seem to like big government getting in everyone’s face, but the view doesn’t hold for big business. But I digress.

As for France, that’s an old rivalry. Judging from out two countries’ histories, if France were able to, they would be doing the exact same as we’re doing now. Our two countries just seem to make the same moves(viet nam is an exampl in which we followed the French lead). The problem with arguing who likes us is this: France doesn’t like us, we must be bad. If we don’t like France, then they must be bad. Okay, who’s the pot and who’s the kettle?

Anyway, broad generalizations like all of the middle east not liking us are not helping this argument. They sure like to send their royal families to study in our schools. Why don’t they then form schools out there to rival ours? Because the middle eastern model is all for one, to hell with the rest of you. The have-have not scenario is at its most extreme in the middle east, and I’ not sure that they could do worse for political models than what they have now. Those millions of poor don’t have much time to hate us, what with hating all the things that make life unstable around them.

Anyway, the pot and kettle thing really covers it all. The Iraqi leadership hates us. This proves nothing. They’ve done worse deeds on their own soil to their own people than we ever could.

26

my original question was

why do so many people, in so many countries, have negative feelings toward us? this was my original statement. Do not say becuase of islam, jealousy, envy, or anything like that. there has to be a reason that is valid.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

27

KC Elbows,

You are correct. I should not have made such a general statement. Thanks for keeping me honest and doing it in a civil way. Much appreciated! Catch ya all later on…gotta get to my job now. :cool:

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

28

Dragon Warrior,
You cannot dictate the answer to a question. Fundamentalist Muslim groups are part of the equation, greedy middle eastern regimes are part of the equation, outdated political models are part of the equation, lack of foreign aid after the soviet era is part of the equation, US interests are part of the equation, Israel is part of the equation, etc.

However, the middle eastern problem we see in this century was influenced to a profound extent by the UK, and the US has been trying to navigate the troubled waters left behind ever since. We don’t always do the right thing, but leaving these countries to chaos is not the right thing either. Anyway, the answers to the question you just posted are on the past threads I already told you about. Those threads are fairly unbiased and come from both sides of the argument.

29

In fairness,
The threads I talk about really only relate why someone in the middle east might hate us. As for the rest of the world, those threads just give part of the picture.

However, I tend to feel that this so-called hatred is the biggest part of the problem. I find that people who hate specific groups(gays, Iraqi people in general, blacks) tend to be completely steeped in some form of propaganda. All the hardcore racists I have ever met use the same arguments from the same sources, and none of it is fact. Same with the homophobics(what is Jerry Falwell but the minister of propaganda for the extreme fundamentalist christians?). I suspect it is the same elsewhere. Hate is only really possible against a person who is objectified in some way, so that they become, to the viewer, a symbol of hate. My response to the question is why do they hate?

30

why do so many people, in so many countries, have negative feelings toward us? this was my original statement. Do not say becuase of islam, jealousy, envy, or anything like that. there has to be a reason that is valid.

OK DW…I already stated some of the reason…I truly don’t understand what answer are u hoping to get…maybe u want us to admit the US is EVIL…lol. And u’re saying jealousy, islam or envy is not valid??? Why not??? These are reasonable standard of hate from any human being on the planet. What do u consider VALID???

A

31

islam is not a valid reason because islam preaches peace, love and compassion, not hate.

jealosy and envy i also do not think are valid, do you think people are willing to go to war over jealousy, i dont think so.

im sure there are alot of reasons for negative feelings toward the united states, abuse of power probably being # 1.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

32

DW…very good…they don’t like us cause our POWER extends very far and mighty…eh??? But u state ABUSE of POWER…what do u mean??? Please elaborate…have we invaded and occupy any countries???

Regarding the ISLAM thread…there are certain SECs…like the TALIBANs that are EXTREMISTs…just like certain CATHOLIC groups that are EXTREMISTs…David Koresh for example. So we don’t blame ISLAM…notice how WE are not against ISLAM…we are against TERRORISM.

A

33

“Regarding the ISLAM thread…there are certain SECs…like the TALIBANs that are EXTREMISTs…just like certain CATHOLIC groups that are EXTREMISTs…David Koresh for example. So we don’t blame ISLAM…notice how WE are not against ISLAM…we are against TERRORISM”

I agree.

As far as the “abuse of power” issue, i dont really know enough about the subject to talk about it, but im pretty sure this is a reason for hatred toward our country. Maybe someone else would like to give examples.

check out that website i posted before. they talk about the subject.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

34

Oh by the way…jealousy=hatred…usually dictated by one man or a group of men…that eventually sweeps the public to cause a declaration of war! Hmmmmmmmmm…since u answer “I don’t think so???”…ever heard of HITLER??? I’m sure u heard of numeruous stories of MEN going to war over a women…property…they have more than us…this is not a solid indication of JEALOUSY…but this can breed hatred. The Chinese and Russian Communist Rev. were started by saying the ruling class had more than us…they are oppressing us etc…KILL THEM!!! Jealousy and envy plays a factor…don’t say it doesn’t.

A

35

i think money and economic reasons is a much more important factor in war than jealousy. But i do not think jealousy is valid in the anger toward america. But maybe it is, i dont know for sure.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

36

Dragon Warrior…true true…I believe that maybe the reason IRAQ invaded KUWAIT…they weren’t too happy with KUWAIT setting the oil prices. So they annexed the hell out of them. U know what though…CONFLICT is usually created by one man or a group of men. Sad but true.

A

37

Okay, DW, there is no one reason, so no answer is going to satisfy the question. It is the result of a thousand things, and whatever islam teaches does not exonerate fundamentalist islamic groups of responsibility, as they are extremists and fanatical in their viewpoints. As for the historical stuff, its already on two threads that I named earlier, please look it up. The real info makes it clear that neither the pro US nor the anti US arguments are nowhere near cut and dried, but the chips have fallen where they may, and our cultures are at conflict. Even though we are not faultless, we are stuck in a situation where being humble and taking the beating we’ve taken will validate terrorism, and we can’t do that. Peace is important, but peace right now will mean war tomorrow.

38

and because of that, hundreds, thousands, even millions can suffer.

Everyday i cant stop thinking about what happened to the people in the world trade center. I just picture the horrible things that must have happened there. then i think about the suffering everywhere else, and i get such a wierd feeling in my stomach. Now im thinking about people freezing to death in afghanistan while im sitting here in a comfortable chair, sipping tea, and eating whatever i please. Something isnt right.

For years, religion did nothing but divide. (killa priest)

Religion is like a prison for the seekers of wisdom. (killa priest)

39

I tend to think there’s problems in both arenas. We live on too many luxuries, think we deserve waaay more than we’ve earned and close our eyes too much to the important news that goes on. In the middle east, the few really put the irons on the many, tyranny is commonplace, and too much emphasis is placed on reliving past dynastic glories that were not all that glorious.(Side note: Does anyone else find it odd that the extremist fundamentalist groups that enact this sort of terrorism hold against us our imperialism, yet their end goal is to revive the empire of mohammed? Kind of a double standard.)

40

I never got to post this because the thread got closed, but: Chang style novice is correct.