What does it take - and how long does it take...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

to learn wing chun?

Obviously, to learn (and understand the significance of) the 3 forms, how to punch, kick, elbow, knee, the wooden dummy, footwork, drills like pak sao/pak da…bong sao/lop sao…dan chi sao…double arm chi sao…kiu sao (if your system has it)…chi geak (if your system has it)…gor sau…sparring…etc.

(Not even talking about the weapons, for the moment).

It’s really not only a matter of actual time spent (ie.- xxx amount of years)…but also, how that time is spent. Meaning: How much actual instruction did you get? From your instructor(s)…from elder students (sihings), etc?

I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer…

and I’ve always been suspicious of the “there are no authorities in wing chun” attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement…

(which actually means: “since there are no real ‘authorities’ in wing chun - I don’t need to spend much time training with anybody”).

Just a reminder now: This is a thread about wing chun, and not about some other art.

Discuss.

2

Probably a good solid 3 years of training.

3

Okay. But what about the other point?

3 years spent with who, how often, and doing what?

4

Honestly, it only takes as long as a student can absorb it, and that varies. Many stay in a class, but get little hands on with a teacher, and just mimic the motions. They really don’t get much, just a facsimile.

That’s why I prefer to teach one on one, although I have a group class, too.

If a student practices on his own or with a partner 4 hours a day for 5 days a week and 50 weeks a year, they have 1000 hours under their belt. But real mastery is at least 10,000 hours of work. So probably 10 years is what you need.

5

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943892]Okay. But what about the other point?

3 years spent with who, how often, and doing what?[/QUOTE]

I am assuming a typical class environment with someone with typical athletic ability.
3-4 X a week, 90 min classes, that type of thing.
In 3 years one can get a good grasp of the basics and probably a bit more, ie: to LEARN WC.
Become proficient in it is another story.

6

I would say 3-5 years but no longer then that if your training say 3 days a week at least 10 hrs min a week and training on your own on off class days. Any longer then that either your not training or the teacher is not teaching or some mixure of both. Assuming the student does not have a handy cap. Some students learn very slow especially if there a biginner and middle aged.

7

Thanks for the replies so far, guys.

As for this: “If a student practices on his own or with a partner 4 hours a day for 5 days a week and 50 weeks a year, they have 1000 hours under their belt.”

***WELL, okay, Robert, but 4 hours per day - 5 days per week?

I have to assume that this person probably does not have a full time job. And very little (or no) family responsibilities. I don’t know too many people like that. Do you?

8

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943872]to learn wing chun?

Obviously, to learn (and understand the significance of) the 3 forms, how to punch, kick, elbow, knee, the wooden dummy, footwork, drills like pak sao/pak da…bong sao/lop sao…dan chi sao…double arm chi sao…kiu sao (if your system has it)…chi geak (if your system has it)…gor sau…sparring…etc.

(Not even talking about the weapons, for the moment).
[/QUOTE]

Like anything else, it depends on the student.

When I began training with Robert, for example, I already knew all the WCK forms, the drills, etc. from having practiced WCK for 17 years, and so all I needed to do was make some adjustments.

It’s really not only a matter of actual time spent (ie.- xxx amount of years)…but also, how that time is spent. Meaning: How much actual instruction did you get? From your instructor(s)…from elder students (sihings), etc?

WCK has a curriclum which is comprised of the forms, the drills, the kuit, etc. It shouldn’t take a person long to learn these things. But learning the curriculum and practicing the curriculum is the beginner level of WCK. That is not practicing WCK. Practicing WCK is fighting with WCK.

As with any athletic activity, whether WCK or boxing or wrestling or whatever, all you NEED to do is learn the fundamentals and then practice using those fundamentals in the activity itself against quality people. By doing WCK, I mean sparring with it – and against good quality opponents.

The problem with your “actual time spent” is that for most people, the time they spend is rehashing the beginning level over and over again, continuing to do forms and unrealsitic drills their entire life.

I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer…

Since most people only have the curriculum to offer, they don’t need to spend that much time learning that.

Let me ask you: once you finish grammar school, do you continue to stay there or move on?

and I’ve always been suspicious of the “there are no authorities in wing chun” attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement…

Since I am the only person that I know of who has said this, let me clarify what it means. “There are no authorities in WCK” means that no one can tell us how things should be done in WCK – WCK is not like judo, for example, where the Kodokan can issue edicts clarifying what is and is not permissible in judo. In WCK, we all have the curriculum (though in various forms). But no one can tell us that this or that must be used or done a certain way – what matters is whether or not it works for YOU (in fighting). If anyone can use the tools of WCK successfully, then who can say that what they are doing is wrong? So if someone can do X but some “master” says “that is not how you are supposed to do it”, I don’t care because he doesn’t speak for WCK - he is not an authority.

Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,“Yip didn’t teach me the footwork, my opponents did.” He didn’t look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work – he found out for himself by doing it. That is how all athletes develo. Hawkins didn’t look to an authority for an answer, he looked to function, to results as a guide.

“Let application be your sifu” is Robert’s motto and it is a profound message. It advises us to let results guide us, not dogma. As such, WCK is a personal art.

(which actually means: “since there are no real ‘authorities’ in wing chun - I don’t need to spend much time training with anybody”).

It means just the opposite. Since there are no authorities, it is up to YOU and only YOU to find out the answers, and the answers can only be found through application, through fighting with WCK.

Just a reminder now: This is a thread about wing chun, and not about some other art.

Discuss…

Wouldn’t the same apply for any martial art? Like Catch?

9

A few of my students do that. They are students with little responsibility…

I did that throughout Intermediate school, high school, college and throughout my 20’s to 30’s. Now at nearly 47, that has dropped dramatically because of business, kids, private sessions, etc. I have to look for more efficient workouts and quality time. It can be done, perhaps 1-2 hours in the morning, 2 hours late at night…

That is crazy and fanatical…

10

“When I began training with Robert, for example, I already knew all the WCK forms, the drills, etc. from having practiced WCK for 17 years, and so all I needed to do was make some adjustments.” (Niehoff)

***OH REALLY? Who did you train with previously, and how much of that time was actually spent with them?

11

“I have always been very suspicious, for example, of people who do the jack-of-all-trades routine by going from wing chun instructor-to-instructor-to instructor - before actually learning the bulk of the main thrust of what each particular person has to offer…” (Victor Parlati)

“Since most people only have the curriculum to offer, they don’t need to spend that much time learning that.” (Terence Niehoff)

***VERY STRANGE RESPONSE, since you did not address just how much material is in such a curriculum. You just assumed that it couldn’t be much - and hence your remark, “they don’t need much time learning that.” How do you know that?

You don’t know that.

12

“Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,“Yip didn’t teach me the footwork, my opponents did.” He didn’t look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work – he found out for himself by doing it.” (Niehoff)

***I FIND THIS TO BE QUITE BIZARRE, actually.

Since you decided to bring up another art (catch wrestling)…I’ll now use BJJ as an example.

Can anyone picture Helio telling Rickson, Royce, Rorian, Royler, etc. that they need to figure out
on their own how to do this or that?

True, in the final analysis, after being given the material and being drilled on it under Helio’s supervision for a period of time - they will have to work out many particular nuances on their own - in relation to their own particular stengths, weaknesses, body type, etc…

but that’s as far as it goes.

13

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943919]“When I began training with Robert, for example, I already knew all the WCK forms, the drills, etc. from having practiced WCK for 17 years, and so all I needed to do was make some adjustments.” (Niehoff)

***OH REALLY? Who did you train with previously, and how much of that time was actually spent with them?[/QUOTE]

Yes, really. My lineage in wing tsun is through Luk Ming-Kai, a direct Hong Kong student of Leung Ting’s. My lineage in TWC is mainly (except for some Cheung seminars) through Jarrhet Whittico, my training partner (who, btw, Marty and Robert have both met), who in the mid-80’s moved to Australia to study directly and full-time with Cheung (and was David Cheung’s roommate) and later taught me when he returned.

How long? Well, I will be the first to admit that I, like everyone else, wasted a great deal of time repeating the beginner level of WCK (the forms, drills, etc.) over and over believing as we were told that this would bring us skill. I found that no matter how much I practiced the forms, the drills, etc. that I couldn’t make my WCK work - to a level I was satisfied with - and that led me to go to seminars, etc. Fortunately, I found the WCML and that led me to Robert. Robert showed me that I lacked certain fundamentals, like the faat and body structure (to name just two), and with those fundamentals and a change in how I trained them (letting application be my sifu and adopting functional training method), I am now satisfied with my progress.

Your skill and understanding in WCK comes from your own work, not from your sifu. My father was a terrible chess player but he taught me to play. I became a chessmaster. It wasn’t my father who made me a chessmaster, it was the work I put into it and all the games against good players that I played that made me chessmaster. In WCK you stand on your own.

14

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943927]“Hawkins Cheung was asked once if Yip Man taught him the footwork and he said,“Yip didn’t teach me the footwork, my opponents did.” He didn’t look to Yip for some authoritative answer of how to make his art work – he found out for himself by doing it.” (Niehoff)

***I FIND THIS TO BE QUITE BIZARRE, actually.

Since you decided to bring up another art (catch wrestling)…I’ll now use BJJ as an example.

Can anyone picture Helio telling Rickson, Royce, Rorian, Royler, etc. that they need to figure out on their own how to do this or that?

True, in the final analysis, after being given the material and being drilled on it under Helio’s supervision for a period of time - they will have to work out many particular nuances on their own - in relation to their own particular stengths, weaknesses, body type, etc…

but that’s as far as it goes.[/QUOTE]

I can tell that you don’t go train at any grappling schools. There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes – they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up – without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details – and do very well. It’s the same in every sport.

15

"…and I’ve always been suspicious of the “there are no authorities in wing chun” attitude - as this is usually an indication that the person saying that has not spent any significant amount of time actually learning from one (or more) specific instructors - and is now trying to justify himself with such a statement…which actually means: “since there are no real ‘authorities’ in wing chun - I don’t need to spend much time training with anybody”. (Victor Parlati)

…

“It means just the opposite. Since there are no authorities, it is up to YOU and only YOU to find out the answers, and the answers can only be found through application, through fighting with WCK.” (Terence Niehoff)

***AGAIN, your response does not address what was being said. And furthermore, you have confirmed, once again, the fallacy that you believe that there are no real “authorities” in wing chun.

Of course there are. We can argue forever about whose name should be on the list, and whose name should be left off - but they do exist.

And once again, it’s been my experience and observation through many years that those who deny there are authorities are the very same people who haven’t spent (and know they haven’t spent) enough time training directly with someone who is something of an authority.

Or perhaps more than just “something”; but in fact, a true master (or grandmaster) of the art.

16

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943921"Since most people only have the curriculum to offer, they don’t need to spend that much time learning that." (Terence Niehoff)

***VERY STRANGE RESPONSE, since you did not address just how much material is in such a curriculum. You just assumed that it couldn’t be much - and hence your remark, “they don’t need much time learning that.” How do you know that?

You don’t know that.[/QUOTE]

Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part. You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work. You learn to box by boxing, you learn to grapple by grappling; no one can give it to you. You get better by training (sparring) with better and better people. It’s true in boxing, it’s true in grappling and it’s true in WCK.

17

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943937]

“It means just the opposite. Since there are no authorities, it is up to YOU and only YOU to find out the answers, and the answers can only be found through application, through fighting with WCK.” (Terence Niehoff)

***AGAIN, your response does not address what was being said. And furthermore, you have confirmed, once again, the fallacy that you believe that there are no real “authorities” in wing chun.

Of course there are. We can argue forever about whose name should be on the list, and whose name should be left off - but they do exist.

And once again, it’s been my experience and observation through many years that those who deny there are authorities are the very same people who haven’t spent (and know they haven’t spent) enough time training directly with someone who is something of an authority.

Or perhaps more than just “something”; but in fact, a true master (or grandmaster) of the art.[/QUOTE]

You don’t appear to know what a fallacy is.

If you want to make someone an authority over you, that’s fine with me. For me, I don’t take anyone’s word for it but see for myself. Of course, this is just following Yip Man’s advice of “I may be tricking you; go out and see for yourself.” But I didn’t adopt taht because I consider Yip an authority either, it’s just that I’ve examined it and it makes good sense. :slight_smile:

18

There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes – they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up – without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details – and do very well. It’s the same in every sport." (Niehoff)

***YEAH, with the exceptional students. We all hear stories about guys in every sport (including martial arts) that are naturals - great athletes who can pick up things very quickly. But they are the exception - not the rule.

19

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;943943]There are guys at my BJJ school that have rarely attended any technique classes – they just go to sparring classes. Yet they pick everything up – without drilling or anyone standing over them pointing out details – and do very well. It’s the same in every sport." (Niehoff)

***YEAH, with the exceptional students. We all hear stories about guys in every sport (including martial arts) that are naturals - great athletes who can pick up things very quickly. But they are the exception - not the rule.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think they are exceptional. I think this is just the natural way people learn – by doing, and observing what is going on while they do it. I think the whole “martial art mindset” is really just an artifice that gets in the way of that natural way of learning.

20

"Learning and training in WCK is like any TCMA, it has two parts.

The first part is the curriculum. The curriculum of WCK is the forms, the drills (lopsao, chi sao, san sao, etc.), the kuit, etc.

The second part is application - learning and developing your ability to use those things from the curriculum.

No one can teach you the second part." (Niehoff)

***NOT TRUE AT ALL. For the great majority of students - a competent instructor is required in order to help guide one through the curriculum in application. Okay, John…Here’s how pak da can be used in fighting (and not just the pak sao you did in the form or in the pak sao drill)…here’s how you use bong/lop in a real fight/spar application - (and not just how you do these two moves in the forms or the drills), etc. etc.

…

“You can only learn the second part by doing the work yourself, by fighting with your WCK and trying to make it work.” (Niehoff)

***A HALF-TRUTH, which means the other half is false. (As in the word “fallacy”). It’s not “you can ONLY learn the second part by yourself” - it’s BOTH getting instruction about the second part from a competent authority, ie.- your instructor…

AND it’s working it out for yourself - with an occasional “check in” with the teachings you learned (or might still learn) from your instructor.

Now ultimately, it is up to your own self induced and self devised efforts.

And on this point I’ll return to something Robert said earlier: it probably should take about 10 years to actually “master” wing chun - assuming you got competent instruction - and training methods) from a wing chun instructor in the first place. That’s probably about right.

But yeah, in the final analysis, it is up to you, and you alone. You must become the authority.

IN THE FINALE.