Originally posted by [Censored]
[B]I usually do every section of every form, slowly or very slowly. And I speed up, only when my partner or opponent forces me to do so.
If your Tan Sao can be improved by slow practice, why can’t Lan Sao, Pak Sao, and everything else? I have asked this question many times, and never heard a satisfactory answer. [/B]
The reasoning from my perspective is that each section of the form has a different purpose. In the first section we define the centerline, the horse and the structure of the different hands. This section is best suited for 15 minutes or so of super-slow practice.
The second section works the long-arm energy that is released by driving the hands in all directions. The releasing means “go” rapidly to the target. This cannot be done super-slowly.
The third section emphasizes transition. For example from Bong Sau to Tan Sau to strike. If this were done too slowly the transitional nature of the section would be lost.
This is not to say that these sections should never be practiced slowly, since I do practice them slowly (but not super-slow)on a regular basis to ensure that structure and other factors are not lost by too much emphasis on speed.
I appreciate your questions, as they force me to think about why I train the way I do.
Originally posted by [Censored] I usually do every section of every form, slowly or very slowly. And I speed up, only when my partner or opponent forces me to do so.
I was thinking about this portion of your earlier post, and question whether or not it is a good thing to wait until your opponent or partner “forces” you to speed up. You must train for the speed before the situation presents itself in order to be prepared to deliver it. This is also important for other elements of the art as well. Transition being one that was mentioned earlier. You must instinctively know the nature of the hands. Bong sao will become tan sao and that hand will in turn strike. Now this of an example, of course you can do Pak da or whatever flows naturely from the particular situation. But the concept of not holding a hand like you’re posing for a photo opp, but quickly replacing hands and transitioning from one to another must be trained at speed, so that it is done naturally and without conscious thought. It just flows, and I think that is how you should work Sil Lum Tao.
First of all, this is an awesome topic. Good job to the person to post it.
To sanchez:
The way I play both CK and BG, now, is with alot of energy. Especially so with CK. I don’t feel like I play them <that> fast, but I’m aiming for a kinda snappy feel where I really have to work to not bounce out of my horse.
What do you mean with a lot of energy? Are you talking about power? Flexing the arms?
For me right now I don’t to jack at home, i’m as lazy as the 2 panda bears in Hong Kong that were given by china.
What my teacher tells me to do, at my low level, is to do my sil lum tao for 20+ minutes. The first section is slow. The tan sau, fok sau, wu sao is held for 1-2 minutes each. That goes for the left and right sides. The 2nd and 3rd section is played normal/fast speed. I don’t mean fast as in western boxing but just normal /fast speed. (The speed a teahcer teaches you with.)
And my teacher said I should " bust out" heheheh with the stepping drills he taught me. There’s about 10 drills so far. Some are from what traditional wc and the others are what he created himself and added into his practice.
My goal this coming new year.. is to do everything above, but to do slt two times, morning and evening.
As for chum kil and bil tse, I was told that you do them at regular speed. (same speed as section 2 and 3 in SLT) . The SLT is done slow to build elbow energy , position and to practice your intent. (leem tau = train the head)
Originally posted by cha kuen And my teacher said I should " bust out" heheheh with the stepping drills he taught me. There’s about 10 drills so far. Some are from what traditional wc and the others are what he created himself and added into his practice.
If it wouldn’t be too much trouble, I would be very interested in some details on these stepping drills.
The stance that has the right foot in front. When the right foot shuffles forward with a right punch. Left foot shuffles fwd with a left punch.
Same as #1 but with full steps. Right step w/ right punch. Then left foot takes a full step fwd w/ left punch. etc etc
Look against a mirror. Do a right punch with turning the right shoulder. Then do a left punch with turing the left shoulder
Side step with left, and circling step with right foot w/ right gan sau (left does punch)
Then right side step, with left circling step with gan sau again..
Right foot fwd, do gan sau with right hand and left punch. Shuffle forward both feet and repeat gan sau. Both sides
Same as #1 but with Bil Tse
Same as #1 but with double punch
same as #2 but right foot takes extra step forward and then back leg takes full step fwd with dragging the back foot (other back foot when you step fwd).
Same as #2 but with Bil Tse. Do three bil tse’s and lap sau on the 3rd. Follow by 2 chain punches, repeat.
I forgot the rest..but hey! I did my SLT today!! Year 2002. One day in a row.
Wow! All this anonymity! Interesting. FWIW in my profile is my web page which tells you excatly who I am as far as wing chun is concerned. The non wing chun part of me is a different matter.
There are kung fu and wing chun lists that do not allow anonymity.
But then masked dances can be fun for some… apparently.
But- I think you learn less. With anonymity you just nibble at the edge of serious subjects.
While some are secure in giving information some are not. This is a personal thing and it can also serve to indicate ones level of confidence. Some people use anonymity to hide behind and try to build a shroud of mystery around themselve. In some cases trying to appear more skilled or knowledgeable then they really are. In other cases it is a sign or could be a sign of humility.
While I personally, feel that one should be willing to provide relevant information pertaining to ones Wing Chun in terms of time trained, lineage etc., I would not like to see people stop posting out of a concern for being judged on a lack of information. Just as some would try to use a lack of information to boost their status others could try to use their lineage and years in the art to do the same. To me it is a personal issue, if you feel confident enough to give what some may term personal information then by all means do so. If, however, you do not feel comfortable doing so then by all means still post. Just realize that some will view your posting as having less merit while others could care less.
Bottom line, if you wish to share your “personal” information then feel free to do so. If you don’t then that is also fine but could affect the way some view the information you choose to provide.
Originally posted by cha kuen
[B]I’ve just started wing chun…I started in the summer of last year, 2001.
I’m new… I have no stance or elbow enery..yet. =] [/B]
Just keep doing your Sil Lum Tao, that is what was designed for. Do the first section very slowly (build up to 15-20minutes) to work your horse. Focus on the structure of your tan sao, fuk sau, and wu sao, especially elbow position with forward energy, and it will all come together with time. Focus your mind, yet stay relaxed. If it were easy, everybody would be doing it.
Cha kuen -“What do you mean with a lot of energy? Are you talking about power? Flexing the arms?”
Nah…As relaxed as possible, but with alot of ‘intent, idea, yadda yadda’. My sifu once described the punch like a ball and chain - a hard fist on the end of a loose arm delivered with acceleration. Whatever that means
Censored -“If your Tan Sao can be improved by slow practice, why can’t Lan Sao, Pak Sao, and everything else?”
I typically play all but the 1st section of SLT with the energies suggested by my sifu. I tried playing CK really slowly and had alot of trouble with the shifts. I’m gonna sit on that for a bit and come back to it, but I’m not sure if I like it.
It’s my inferred understanding that the 1st section of SLT is almost like a qigong bit with the tan and fuk. Me, I play 'em slow b/c of the demands of chi sao. Building that ‘immovable’ elbow. The other moves I try to play at a normal pace, based on my rate of breath and my experience with those positions in chi sao.
Of course, I base alot of my training on chi sao. I’m a certified junkie!
I was thinking about this portion of your earlier post, and question whether or not it is a good thing to wait until your opponent or partner “forces” you to speed up. You must train for the speed before the situation presents itself in order to be prepared to deliver it. This is also important for other elements of the art as well.
So…I have my partner force me to speed up. Then I speed up, and beat them. When they slow down, I slow down, and beat them again. This is efficiency, this is conservation of energy. This is Wing Chun, right?
…I tried playing CK really slowly and had alot of trouble with the shifts. I’m gonna sit on that for a bit and come back to it, but I’m not sure if I like it.
And that is part of my whole point. Speed and tension in practice can mask your lack of precision and sensitivity, and they can also prevent you from building any significant precision and sensitivity.
Doing CK and BG slowly may build more precision than some people find necessary, or advantageous. I say there is no such thing as “too efficient” in Wing Chun.
For this discussion, I would consider 15-20 minutes to be a “slow” CK or BG.
…But then masked dances can be fun for some… apparently.
But- I think you learn less. With anonymity you just nibble at the edge of serious subjects.
Nonsense. Name one “serious subject” we have avoided on this board due to the anonymity of some participants.
