“It is a fact that Yang Cheng fu watered down the system.”
Everyone tells me this, but no one tells me how. He changed the system, I know, but I think Yang style when taught properly and trained properly, can work in combat just like any other style.
Yang style digression
I have a suspicion about Yang Chengfu’s teaching. I have no other reason for believing this other than a hearsay story I heard and longstanding practice amongst “family” stylists.
What I believe is that Yang Chengfu held-back teachings that he himself had recieved, perhaps expecting to share them later on in his life. So his legacy was actually transmitted in an incomplete way.
The anecdotal story is that he was seen practicing a fast set with “cannons” in Shanghai in the 1920’s. I don’t know where this story originated but it was related to me by a Chen stylist, so he may have been biased 
. If he did train this way then where is it in the system he transmitted? I’ve actually had the opportunity to train a fairly complete Yang syllabus (the 108, Chen Weiming’s and Fu Zhongwen’s broadsword, the old two-person broadsword drills, Chen Weiming’s straight sword and two-person straight sword drills, spear drills and two-person spear drills, the 1-8 push-hands drills, dalu, moving-step push-hands, Chen Weiming’s and Dong Yinjie’s 88 two-person form). Nowhere in this syllabus are are any empty-hand fajing drills (it is said that it is present in the spear).
The other reason that I suspect that Yang Chengfu may have held back is that was a common practice in the 19th century to teach three levels of information to students. “Courtyard” students were the people who learned very simple things from senior students, and who basically provided income. “Public” students, were those who trained in the courtyard behind closed doors and would have the priveledge of feeling the master’s touch, but who were not family members. The last level of student was the successor, the one person who would be given all of the secrets and was trained to be better than all of the rest.
I believe that Yang Chengfu may have struggled with the problem of who he would pass the mantle on to, his sons were clearly less keen on the art than his nephew, Fu Zhongwen, but Fu wasn’t in the direct line. Fu Zhongwen did take the mantle eventually, but he never taught, as far as I know, specific fajing training. Now that Yang Zhendou is the lineage holder I fear for the future of the lineage, but not the style. YZD is a nice man and very sincere, but he is not the pugilist that either his father nor Fu was.
None of this is to say that Yang style is a weak system. I can certainly appreciate the incredible sophistication of the Yang’s approach to the energies of engagement. Although when I began the serious study of the style I could already fire short-power from my Chen Xingyi and Bagua background, so I don’t know what it would feel like to try to learn cannons just out the system itself.
Well, I do love to share my thoughts. Sorry for the tome.
What i do all day is teach at a school of Chinese medicine. Aside from medical history and medical ethics, I teach Chinese physical culture (Qigong and Taiji). So I get to train alot everyday as a part of my job. In my private life I’m single and celibate so there are no relationship issues to distract me from my training. I guess it can come down to the question of what you are willing to sacrafice 
.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
In another posting at another website, someone cited that Fu Zhong Wen’s son was on a tape doing single moving fajing exercises. I finally tracked the tape down, its the China’s Living Treasures, the George Xu series and sure as shootin there is Fu Zhong Wen doing the form and later his son doing fajing exercises.
These were similiar to what my first teacher, Tom Phillips showed us in 1983 (he was a very early student of Jou Tsung Hwa). Since then I have never seen them, even in the late 80s and 90s at the Tai Chi Farm.
Does anyone practice them and where exactly do they come from
Kevin:
You may already have known that Fu Zhongwen taught single-movement fa jing drills. His son demonstrates some of them on his instructional videotape of the long form. If in fact Fu Zhongwen received more of the transmission than, say, Yang Zhenduo, this fuller transmission may be the origin of Fu Zhongwen’s single-movement fa jing drills. Or Fu may just have developed them on his own. I will note that I haven’t found every one of the 108 postures as done in Yang Cheng-fu’s long form to be amenable to fa jing.
A number of instructors teach a “Yang family fast form,” supposedly taught to the indoor disciples. Dong Yijie was supposedly one of those indoor disciples, but he had to create his own fast form (based in part on his Hao style taijiquan training . . . although it’s not clear that Hao style had a “fast form” before Hao Weizhen).
In any event, these various “fast forms” of taijiquan probably reflected the original structure of Chen style training, with its Yi Lu and Er Lu forms. Daniel Blacklock wrote an interesting article in one of the “Internal Martial Arts” newsletters (www.sixharmonies.org)comparing the Lao Jia (old frame) Chen forms with the “Xiao Jia” (small-frame) Chen form coming down from Chen Qingping (who was perhaps Wu Yu-hsiang’s major teacher; Wu Yu-hsiang taught Li I-yu who taught Hao Weizhen who taught, among others, Dong Yingjie and Sun Lutang). Blacklock indicates that he was taught the Yi Lu of the Chen Xiao Jia style so that every posture could be performed quickly and with fajing. Lao Jia Chen is not taught this way; only a handful of Yi Lu movements are executed with fa jing in Lao Jia. Perhaps correlating with Blacklock’s statement is the apparent lack of an Er Lu routine in Chen Xiao Jia (or at least I’ve never come across any reference to one).
One other tidbit for when you’re sipping a beer or herbal tea or whatever your choice of post-training longevity elixir is: Yang Chengfu may not necessarily have been the one to receive the “full transmission” from his daddy Jianhou. Many, even within the YCF line, talk about YCF being a slacker until after his father died, at which point he threw himself into diligent practice. The point is, YCF may have figured out a lot of what he eventually wound up teaching on his own.
One intriguing claim to the “full transmission” of Yang taijiquan can be found at www.aymta.org, the website for the Yang Jianou-Zhang Qingling-Wang Yen-nien partisans. They have produced people pretty decent at tuishou, but I don’t know what if any training they provide for fa jing. Their “michuan” form is significantly different from YCF’s.
questions
Didn’t the blacktaoist (and maoshan?) make claims awhile ago to be recognized by a bunch of masters, including william cc chen, and didn’t chen’s daughter than come onto the forum and say that chen didn’t recognize the blacktaoist (and maoshan?)
Also, I find it interesting that Kevin is on Maoshan’s ‘list’ when I seem to recall awhile ago the blackdaoist (and maoshan?) saying that they thought that Kevin’s two teachers (BK frantzis and john painter) don’t have skillz.
Also Maoshan, didn’t you recently ‘swear’ that you were going to visit the school of one of the posters on this board in the immediate future and beat him up? Did you? If not, why should anyone here take your word for anything?
just asking-
[This message was edited by brucelee2 on 04-30-01 at 12:43 PM.]
And The Worse thing is…
I called up Chen Xiao Ping the other day and asked him as to whereabout is his school. To my big surprise, he said that he does not teach and most of all, does not have any student!!!
I politely asked him whether it was possible to meet up with him and he told me he usually hangs out in a park in Queens.
Hence my confusion: both Maoshan and Blacktaoist claimed that Chen Xiao Ping is their teacher and Chen Xiao Ping claims that he does not teach and does not have students. Maybe both gentlemen above are Chen’s “secret disciples”, or Chen was lying, or worse of all, the two gentlemen were making false claims.
Conclusion… you decide!
Mmmmmm . . . I don’t know that I would call Chen’s response “lying” so much as perhaps polite Chinese offputting . . . in Chinese culture, and particularly in Chinese martial arts culture among high-level practitioners, a wee bit of introduction is appreciated, usually by someone known to the teacher. Chen may not run an open commercial school . . . that does not mean he doesn’t teach martial arts, nor that Maoshan a.k.a. Ben Hill and Novell Bell are not his students. Metallica, this kind of dissuasion is not all that uncommon. Then again . . . you could be right. I know that Chen Xiao Ping has done some seminars . . . maybe that’s what Ben Hill means by having Chen as his teacher.
As for Maoshan’s “list”, let’s not be childish about it. Maoshan either meant only to list some of the people he thought are “cool,” which I take it to mean that he values their opinion and assumes they have some good experience and skill to back it up, or he meant the list to be what he wrote, an exclusive list dissing everyone not on it. Either way it’s kind of amusing, since he hasn’t crossed hands or practiced with even most of the people he lists . . . let alone the rest of the people on this forum. I just think he gets lonely out there in Syracuse, and jumps in here for company.
Wujidude
e-mail me!
count@kabooom.com
Thanks RAF and wujidude, I did know about Fu Zhongwen doing individual movements with fajing. However it seems that this training was considered supplemental, like zhanzhuang, not an actual part of the syllabus. I agree that there is a good chance that Yang Chengfu’s reluctance to train Taiji as a youngster may have led to him missing some of the depth. After all, he seems to have only switched back to Taiji from Shuaijiao after losing to some of his father’s students.
To answer your queation RAF, it is a basic part of my Chen training to do individual movement fajing, primarliy punches and elbows. As well there are many specfic power traning exercises including, but not limited to, the spear. In the context of Yang style, I trained the 88 two-person form with Sam Masich and one of his goals was to get me up to “live” speed. The last time I worked with him August we were managing to move rather explosively without losing the smooth connection so characteristic of the style.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
Kevin:
I saw the area you live in from one of the website links. My doctor is from that area. It looks really beautiful.
For my own Chen training we do some single moving postures but I sort of bastardized things. I use the xiao baji training which is a form that uses 24 movements of linked static postures and breathing but can also be played with fajing and fast. We also do a lot of single moving exercises with a significant amount of emphasis on dropping one’s weight and kao.
Sam Masich, I don’t know him, but have watched him on a number of the Taste of China videos. He seems very decent.
Regarding Yang Cheng Fu style ala Fu Zhong Wen, Ted Knecht, a friend I’ve known and trained with over the years, is probably one of the most knowledgeable guys regarding the style. His teacher, Mei Sheng, is both an Eastern and Western Doctor of medicine. Ted is a genuine martial artist and Yang Cheng Fu system he practices has fighting applications and additional training exercises.
If you contact him at his website, I am sure he will privately answer all your questions regarding the style.
I still can’t get those images of your town out of my mind. Winter must be really something.
Well, for the record BK. Frantzis is not my teacher, I know some students of his and a certified Qigong student of his lives very close to me and her and I spend time together and I have meet BK. Frantzis once, thats it. These was a bit there that I was being falsely portrayed here and it was written that I had racist views and what not, but a lot of posts sometime ago written under my name wasn’t really me.
As for Maoshan and BlackTaoist they seem to have the want to back up what they claim and while you can’t tell a lot from pictures they seem to really study and work hard in their Bagua ability.
My Baguazhang teacher is now Shifu Dr. John Painter and I am grateful for his advice and instruction to me.
The circle will always be, but you alone decides when it starts and where it ends.
Brucelee2 and metillica - what are you up too?
As some of the people on this post are aware of I haven’t posted on any forums for a while. I wanted to dedicate my time and energy to other endeavors as well as practice. Now in my past residence on this board, I’ve met many practitioners face to face, over the phone and via email. These individuals are cool with my crew and me and we all show love to each other as Pa Kua Chang brothers. I wanted to start the letter of with this intro to make a statement what I’m about to say is directed to brucelee2 and Metallica. These words are from my mouth and mine alone. I will pull no punches on this post because what I’ve seen on this post is atrocious and has to be answered with expediency.
Brucelee2
“Didn’t the blacktaoist (and maoshan?) make claims awhile ago to be recognized by a bunch of masters, including william cc chen,
Well first of all Mr. Brucelee2 they were not claims. All you or anybody has to do is to do your OWN investigation and ask Mr. Chen about Novell G. Bell. Is that so hard? Go down to the school and see for yourself. In fact on Sunday, April 29, 2001 I was at Chen school to get some corrections on my form with the blacktaoist. Grandmaster BP Chan was there plus other students. The respect he received at the school was by leaps and bounds from any so-called “claimsâ€.
“and didn’t chen’s daughter than come onto the forum and say that chen didn’t recognize the blacktaoist (and maoshan?)â€
If you remember the post correctly, Mr. Chen’s daughter had an issue with CK Chu name being mention on the same line and topic as her father. There was no issue between blacktaoist and his daughter. At the tournaments I’ve been in, I’ve never seen Chen’s daughter so any ill will towards the blacktaoist.
“Also, I find it interesting that Kevin is on Maoshan’s ‘list’ when I seem to recall awhile ago the blackdaoist (and maoshan?) saying that they thought that Kevin’s two teachers (BK frantzis and john painter) don’t have skillz.â€
If this sentence is true about their issues with BK Frantzis and John Painter so what? Blacktaoist didn’t write the list it was Maoshan, so why are you mentioning the black taoist name? Second – so what if Kevin is on Maoshan’s list? If he is cool with Kevin so what is wrong with that? If I don’t like my friends father does that mean I shouldn’t like my friend?
“Also Maoshan, didn’t you recently ‘swear’ that you were going to visit the school of one of the posters on this board in the immediate future and beat him up? Did you? If not, why should anyone here take your word for anything?â€
Yes, Maoshan did state he would visit a school in the future. And your point is? How did you know that he won’t visit tomorrow or in the summer or next year? How do you if something is planned? Why even bring it up? Both schools have not discuss this topic and it should be left like it was for months now…alone…what does a statement that Maoshan make have anything to do with having to take his word for anything? My man, there is a saying that the “Streets are watching and bad boys move in silenceâ€. This is not a Shaw brother’s martial arts flick.
Metallica
“I called up Chen Xiao Ping the other day and asked him as to whereabouts is his school. To my big surprise, he said that he does not teach and most of all, does not have any student!!!â€
First of all I doubt you were able to get Mr. Ping’s number. He is not listed. Second even if you did get his number that must mean he does not want to be bother with you. Don’t you think?
“I politely asked him whether it was possible to meet up with him and he told me he usually hangs out in a park in Queens.â€
You are correct
“Hence my confusion: both Maoshan and Blacktaoist claimed that Chen Xiao Ping is their teacher and Chen Xiao Ping claims that he does not teach and does not have students. Maybe both gentlemen above are Chen’s “secret disciples”, or Chen was lying, or worse of all, the two gentlemen were making false claims.
Conclusion… you decide! “
I will show you how so wrong you are my friend…. First of all Mr. Ping has had two Yin Style seminars that everyone on KFO was aware of. In both seminars, Novell was his assistant because he is HIS student. Second we have advertised that we are going to Beijing to learn under Mr. Ping brother Zhang…everyone and anyone was invited based on the availability of the seats. Does that sound like theblacktaoist is lying? Oh by the way please follow this link - http://pages.zdnet.com/niwah64/Ba-GuaZhang/id3.html Everyone was fully aware of both of the Black Taoist fight with a Beijing San Shou champion and Chen Xiao was there at his side. If you go to http://www.blacktaoist.com/graphics/practitioners/index.htm or http://www.blacktaoist.com/Liberate%20yourself.html . Note Mr. Ping pictures with the Black Taoist? Isn’t that Mr. Zhang Lei picture on the website who is Mr. Ping brother? Doesn’t Maoshan and the Black Taoist have Zhang Lei’s picture on both of their websites? (Oh by the way Pa Kua enthusiast if you look at Joseph Crandell’s book on Yin Fu you will see where he got his illustrated his pictures from Zhang Lie that is another story for a another post.) Feel free to come down the park and see for yourself.
Mr. Brucelee2 and Metallica what was your purpose in writing these post? You guys know damn well that TBT has not posted in such a long time. What bring his name up? What is your beef? Why question the black taoist? What is the real underlying reason for such hatred? Amazing all you guys do up here is talk about so – called great pa kua teachers that write books and such and the black taoist has never lied about who and what he is. He has never hid himself behind a computer screen. He has clearly told everyone where to find him and how to see him face to face. Does this sound like someone dishonest? What is the reason for this? This is why he doesn’t post anymore because of the foolishness that goes up here.
I had to write this to in support of my family to ensure the real information was posted. It is such a waste of my time to be on this forum posting information on crap like this but I need to bring the truth forward. Now feel free to dispute my information but the proof is there. I’m not going to get into a back to forth debate over these issues. Mr. Metallica if you are interest in learning Cao Branch Yin Fu from Mr. Ping I’m sure you will have to go learn from the Black Taoist. For some reason I think learning from the “Black†Taoist doesn’t appeal to you….
Razak da mind boxer aka beng to the chest
Razak,
I do not feel any nor did I demonstrate any hatred for Maoshan or the Black Taoist. (I’ve never met them- why would I hate them or care much about them?) I asked some fair and honest questions- that’s all- there’s nothing wrong with that. And Maoshan and Black Taoist should speak for themselves- my post did not mention you nor was it addressed to you. Finally, I find it interesting that you find my post ‘full of hate’ but when your buddy Maoshan says that nobody but his ‘list’ has anything worthwhile to say- you have no problem with that. Was that ‘list’ an act of love? As far as visiting the BlackTaoist and Maoshan goes, I’d like to, but I live in Vancouver now and I don’t think its gonna happen in the immediate future. I don’t know you guys, but I do feel a real lack of humility coming from their posts, and its offputting. The first credential of mastery is humility. PERIOD
The only Yang style fast form I’ve ever heard of was created by a guy who used to teach here in LA (I can’t remember his name - tell the truth, I’m not really that familiar with the whole Yang tai chi community).
I have heard of a yang family longfist that Yang Cheng-fu only taught to certain people, and I believe Fu Zhongwen was one of them. Could this be the form “with cannons” that he was seen practicing in Shanghai? I’ve been told that yang family longfist is heavy on chan ssu jin, and has a strong chen-style flavor.
“Fu Zhongwen did take the mantle eventually, but he never taught, as far as I know, specific fajing training.”
Actually, he mentions some fajing training in his book “mastering yang style taijiquan” (but he doesn’t describe it).
I’m not nearly as knowledgable about the lineage and such as Kevin Wallbridge or wujidude (whose name I like, by the way). The general impression I get is that combative yang style training tends to be less form-oriented and more single-posture oriented (at my school in san diego, group classes were single posture drills when they weren’t tuishou). The way I understand it, eventually these single posture drills are done with fajing.
ATTN: Kevin Wallbridge
I noticed that in your most recent post in this topic you said that Yang Cheng Fu studied shuai jiao in his youth. Can you give me any more details about this (i.e. source, how long for, who with, what style, etc..)?
The first credential of mastery is
Skill, the second is experience. I’d say humility, although not an undesirable personality trait, ranks down around 9th or 10th. Brucelee2, is this your contribution to a thread about what you do all day?
Metallica, sometimes high level teachers just won’t teach without a recommendation from a teacher. Do you have a good teacher? Maybe Chen Sifu is not the teacher for you. I have found the adage that when a student is ready, a teacher will present itself to be true. I don’t think any of the conclusions you have drawn in your post are even close. I know none of these men are lying or hiding any secrets. In fact, maoshan has shared more truths than almost any of the contributors to this forum. (blacktaoist too!) I think if you are serious about studying from Chen Xiao Ping, you should meet with blacktaoist as he is openly teaching. Possibly, if you seem like you can learn, he will recommend you.
Wujidude, e-mail me.
maoshan, thank you for taking the time and reading my posts. Your input is valuable to me. Your posts are also valuable to me. Keep on posting.
0
Brucelee2
Like I stated in my previous post I will not get involved in back to back discussions. As far as myself stepping into the discussion…well its like this - theblacktaoist is my teachear and a friend so just like if I’m in the street and someone is trying to attack him I will defend him as such he would do for me. I guess you can blame part of my attitude because he is training me to be a warrior. (remember a soldier is told when to fight and a warrior knows when to fight) Now in regards of myself mentioning Maoshan’s name I did so because theblacktaoist name was mention along with him. REMEMBER THEBLACKTAOIST DIDN’T POST ANY LIST IT WAS MAOSHAN. If no one ever mentioned theblacktaoist name I would not have said anything myself. I know full well that Maoshan can handle himself. Anyway most of the cats up on this post can’t handle the knowledge Maoshan puts out. Yeah Maoshan put that list out…it wasn’t my idea…I’ve never did that on this forum…is it hate? It’s all from your individual prespective…but again if theblacktaoist name was not mention I would have never came into the subject. You have to remember that when you speak on one person you are testing the whole crew. That is another reason why I don’t post as much because I represent a group of people. Most of the people on the forum I have good relationships with outside of this forum. I can name a lot of names but there is no need. We are all cool. To be honest we’ve been told that we are giving out too much information and wasting our energy. I needed to post because I KNOW the facts better then anybody concerning the questions that were asked. Believe me my friend me responding to the post is doing everyone a favor because I’m sure theblacktaoist would much better job then I would to these questions.
Oh by the way did I answer your questions? How about your boy Metillica? Did I answer his questions from the last post?
The first credential of mastery is humility. PERIOD
One other thing as I stated in my previous post…this is not a Shaw Brothers martial arts books…humility is not the question here…you step to us step back …
“…It doesn’t mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don’t call it violence when it’s self- defense, I call it intelligence.”
Malcolm X
Man, this is getting downright silly. Let it go, OK? No one is benefiting by this. I originally objected to the tone of Maoshan’s list, the way in which he put it–not whether or not he thought me “cool” or competent. The guy has a right to his opinion. He either meant the list the way he stated it, as an exclusive list–or else he didn’t, and I simply misunderstood him. That’s it. I don’t know Maoshan or his abilities, and he most definitely doesn’t know me. To make sweeping generalizations just shows ignorance, or an immature mind. Let’s not let this degenerate into the kind of debacle that the earlier verbal sparring between the eternal Nubian and David Ross of High-Carb Lama Boxing turned into.
Kevin, some weird **** has been written here under your name and other aliases that, if it wasn’t you, I’m glad. I’m talking about unsubstantiated reports of blowing through a Wing Chun sifu and his students using xingyi down in Utah . . . and other claims. Elsewhere you’re apparently hunting vampires (http://users.twave.net/b13/morons.html).
Metallica, it would be worth continuing to check into training with Chen Xiao Ping. It would not at all be unusual for him to refer you to a senior student for training. He may in fact just be interested in doing seminars. I would enjoy learning the Cao style of Yin Fu baguazhang if I were in NYC more frequently. But if you don’t have any luck with Chen Xiao Ping, there are certainly other good bagua teachers in the NYC area. One who hasn’t been teaching much bagua but is supposed to be highly skilled in 9 Palaces (Cheng Tinghua) baguazhang is Li Tai Liang.
brucelee2, you’ve got a great teacher in Yang Guo Tai. I wouldn’t be moving from Vancouver any time soon; I’d be putting in as much time as you can, every morning every day, as Master Yang is getting on in years. I don’t know that you’d find any better teacher in NYC anyways.
Maoshan, Razak . . . what’s the point? You’ve spoken your truth. Anything from here on is just mouthboxing. You guys are above slander. If we’ve gotta talk, let’s talk about training, technique . . . the art.
Thanks.
By the way, folks, I’m bowing out of the forum for the foreseeable future. I’ve got a new business opportunity to pursue and some life exigencies to attend to. I’ll be on the road this spring and summer. There are some great teachers out there, and maybe I’ll get a chance to visit with them. But I’m sort of with Water Dragon–there are more important things than posting–and the gentleman from Manchester (Internal Boxer)–there are talkers and there are walkers. All in all, when the discussion is about specific hard information–where is there a teacher of a particular art, how do you do a specific technique–a forum like kungfuonline’s is great. The rest seems to be far too much vapid meandering and trashtalking to be worthwhile.
Good training to all of you.