“I understand the ideas od Wu De, but am not interested necessarily in archaic practices. I owe loyalty to X”
That quote from someone on one of the other boards got me thinking, what do we owe our instructors in the way of loyalty, respect and dedication?
For me I respect my TKD Master but I’m dedicated to the art he teaches not him. Loyalty is something deeper that I reserve for those who have earned it.
i owe him $$, well 2 days from now:D
I wouldn’t study under someone who I didn’t think deserved my respect. Loyalty and dedication are built over time, not instantly given.
There are different places of learning. Some are courses at college. Some are a class at a recreation center, school, gymnasium, university, park…Some are in a building which’s insides are filled with Stuff for learning or relevant to the martial art. There are probably different reasons people get an instructor. Chinese opera used to pay for children (supposedly). In China there was no money exchanged (in some cases). There was a bond or agreement of I will teach you my Kung-Fu and you will put me first in all~ things~. Later students were not so. And money was exchanged for lessons. I No_Know how they did it in Korea. Japan likely were told, do this…respect him…Go. And obeying was big in their society. Aligience was given to some one. Everyone was in the service of someone else, in Japan.
So (needle-and-thread), whether you give your loyalty seems to depend on if you have any Loyalty to give. A stereotypical American is self-centered, me, me, me. And for many, if I don’t look out for me, no one will. This loyalty stuff seems Cultural. It depends on your up-bringing or how you live your life.
I think that my mind is set to Stereotypically (for me) Chinese ways. I could have none but my Sifu, until (s)he says otherwise. It is part of Kung-Fu (stereotypically (for me) to have a deep connection with the Sifu. We work together to further our own goals. He does h is/er job–watches me guides me. Looks out for my well-being, Has concern for my well-being. And teaches me what I Need, to learn h is/er Kung-Fu. My job is to Learn. To practice and get as much from the instruction as I might be able. And to be better than my Sifu. Yet, Humble about my accomplishments. And Still respect H im/er. Because, in Kung-Fu, there is no cieling. And no matter how much I might know (not necessarily literally), I No!_Know.
$25 Aus and my Life!!!
Did you learn from the art or from the Si Fu? It is straight foreward… of course you learned from your sifu. He spent the time to teach, guide and nourish you. In a traditional kwoon money from the student is only important for the overhead…what really counts from the student are items of the Spirit…such as caring, loyalty, courtesy, respect and honor to name a few. These are not archaic…but are qualities still as important today as they were in the past. Unfortuneately a number of todays students may have enrolled in a commercial school where money is the most important thing and there exist today (as I am sure in the Past as well) those students who think the only thing that is important is the art and to preserve it (and of course there are those students who are toally self centered and think only of themselves but use the “Icare for the art” ploy to help to make themselves look better). True the art is important, but you would not even have the art if your sifu did not take the time to teach it to you. Qualities of the Spirit are far more important to the student, sifu and the art than knowledge and fighting ability.
GHD
Grateful, appreciative and the desire to take care of my Teacher!
honest dedication to, and respect for, the learning. This applies equally to the person who has the physical capability to master an entire system, as it does to those who cannot do this, but who have potential in what they can do.
basic respect for teacher, other students and self. This entails respect for the physical person, and feelings.
It’s not putting on a pedestal. Honest teaching (teachers) should be respected for the work it took for them to achieve this level, and for being of service to students and community; in addition, for caring for the wellbeing of students (beyond the economics and trophy bearing capabilities). For a student, it’s being an aware being, respecting and fostering that awareness in others in a cooperative setting in which everyone wishes for the success of their peers as well.
loyalty is a loaded topic that was discussed in a recent thread. I think that combining traditional views of loyalty within MA with the modern business of martial arts can trip people up. Even without that blip, blind obedience and strict hierarchy can work well in certain scenarios but not in others, as I have said before. It is a utopian framework and a social structure all in one. As such, the formula for erosion is already written into the equation as the opportunity for choice increases, and other factors change as well. This includes the leadership. Everything evolves.
Dedication to the arts and to one’s development as a human being are Required. You need to believe what you are doing is right, and that you are learning to become what is right for you, or why are you doing this?
Dedication/devotion to a person is something that should be allowed to develop over time. Yet, the devotion, imo, is essentially to the Work. It is natural that this will spill over to those who most embody the work, but a division, a perspective, needs to remain for the good of all (imo).
That a student does not embrace some traditional ways, does not automatically indicate a lack of respect on the part of the student. At this point, I think it is partly just being careful, and a matter of seeking to maintain a certain level of autonomy. No amount of idealistic rhetoric can substitute for the reality of the necessity of a two-way street view of associations in Kwoon. It’s more than I’ll teach you some Kung Fu when you pay me, and I’ll treat you more special cause you let me use your truck to transport the lion dance team.
When an adept sifu is teaching all in kwoon who are willing to work in a manner in accord with the art, which includes finding and developing their own true natures, in a measured and fair way (without shortcuts for a fast return), then one can speak of devotion to a person as well, for then we are talking of special friendship.
These are my views and feelings. I realize that people’s opinions are based on their own background and experiences. That is all we know. So, I’m not saying that just because something doesn’t work all the time, it can’t work at all. I just don’t see certain ways as necessarily a given at all times, or even most of the time in this less than perfect world.
Cody
imnsho
you owe your teacher(s) acknowledgement that it was they who transmitted the knowledge and information of the art to you.
you owe them the effort it takes you to maintain and develop yourself with the art.
you owe them the sharing of what you have been taught combined with the above so that the art/knowledge will live on passed you and those who came before.
as an exercise, reverse the question…
i.e “what does your sifu owe you?”
peace
The student came to the sifu/teacher to learn. The sifu owes the student nothing. Should the student be considered of good character by the sifu, the sifu will teach him within the boundaries of the students understanding and deserving to learn which is based on the students character, understanding and abilities and within this context the sifu would teach the student well. The sifu would also teach the student more than just the martial arts and if the sifu is trained in traditional Chinese medicine, he would also help to heal the student of injuries and/or health issues. This is not owed to the student, but rather the traditional sifu considers it his moral obligation and duty as passed on to him by his teacher. One of the great diservices to the martial arts in todays world is the attitude that the student is ‘owed’ something by the teacher - it is still the same self-centered attitude of the student and because of his attitude and belief system, that type of student just does ‘not get it’ 
There have been a number of articles in vogue of what constitutes a ‘good teacher’, it is high time to rather consider what constitutes a ‘good student’.
GHD
Every coin has two sides and yet it is still but one coin.
The teacher is in my opinion never “above” the students. only “before”.
Plenty of Teachers are ego motivated and self centered themselves. Some can recognize this and others fail to do so.
Students also do many things beyond the norm for their teachers. Sometimes over and above what they would do for their own family.
Any relationship between two people must serve both of them to make it worthwhile.
To serve and to be served are folds in the same cloth.
The teacher owes the student instruction in what the student is seeking instruction in without holding back. The Student owes the teacher his attention and dedication to the development of himself through the vehicle of the teachers instruction, which in turn came before the teacher and stands alone in that respect.
When the teacher witholds, he does himself and his student a great diservice. When the student witholds, it is the same result.
There can still be some fruition to the relationship, but the art will not suffer as much as that relationship. THe teacher will move on to his next student and the student will move on to his next teacher. That’s the way it is and has always been in near every field of study particulalrly the Martial arts.
peace
Rights AND Responsibilities
Kung Leck has beaten me to the punch 
I am not a martial arts instructor, I do give extra math lessons though.
Do I owe my student anything, yes. I owe him/her my full attention and abilities for the time they have payed me for. Even if I werent getting paid but agreed to give my time I would be obligated to deliver what I promised.
I do this with the understanding that the student will, in addition to paying me, participate fully in the lesson. So the student has a right to the tuition agreed upon but also a responsibility not to waste my time(not to mention their parents money). If I did it purely for money I wouldn’t enforce the responsibility issue. Although if my student fails to apply themselves their failure might be blamed on me and my reputation would suffer. Therefore…
Instructors must teach to their full ability.
Students must learn to their full ability.
If either party neglects their responsibilities, the contract(I use the term loosely) between us is broken.
Students and teachers NEED each other(I cant teach a brick wall, neither can I learn from one). I am a teacher. He is the student. Neither is better than the other. Initialy both parties must have respect for one another, from then on respect may be gained or lost based on the actions of the parties. Isn’t that how all healthy consenting relationships are initiated and maintained, through mutual respect?
Why would the martial arts differ?
That’s the way I feel too Excession and Kung Lek. Because of family obligations the master of my school had to cut back personally training all of us. If I was dedicated to him rather than his vision of the art I would have been out of there, and we have lost some students because of his choice of family over students. What he did provide for us are good instructors to keep us learning between the times that he teaches.
A third question could be, what do we owe our fellow students?
what i owe my sifu
he’s probably the man i owe 3rd most (behind my parents)
from taking kung fu i’ve learned some of the most important lessons of my entire life
one of them being, if you want to be good at something - practice it, you have to put in the time
and on top of that, its a 4 times weekly source of peace of mind, and joy
as to how i can repay him, all i really got is to keep going to class, and praticing my butt off
I owe nobody anything - and expect nothing from people either.
Soon I shall open my own school. Callous as it sounds, I only ask that people fork over the $$$ when it’s time for tuition to be paid.
Respect and love and piety should be EARNED.
Respect, Honesty, Integrity, Humility
We all know that a true instructor is not in it for the money. And a true student is not in it for the black belt or the acclaim.
Everyone within the kwoon owes everyone else their honesty, integrity and humility.
We also owe each other respect. We must respect what we are learning and what we are teaching. We must respect each other’s strengths and weaknesses.
Our instructors guide us and mould us and for that we should be eternally grateful.
I, for one, would be lost without the existance of my instructor.
what are you going to teach first Huang? the ‘objects’ form or the ‘chair’ form?
The sifu ‘owes’ the student no instruction. Instruction must be ‘earned’ by the student through hard work, dedication and a good character and when ‘earned’, the sifu will instruct the student according to the development of the particular student. Instruction in the art is a’gift’ from the sifu to the student…it cannot be ‘bought’ with material gifts or favours. ‘Oweing’ is a common attitude amoungst some people of society…society owes them a living and if society does not provide it, this person says…“well then, I will take it”. Its basic thinking errors 101. So this attitude is not surprising amoungst certain ‘types’ of students.
How 'ego came into this I do not know…what I said was “self-centered attitude”. A person can have a large ego or a small one and still be self-centered…they only consider ‘what they have done and consider it the most important, rather than looking at what has been done for them by others’ (including the sifu).Of course everyone has an ‘ego’…even Buddhist monks have an ego…it is part of human nature. one cannot survive without an ego. Some people have larger ones and some smaller and some pretend to be humble but actually are not…really no point in discussing ego, as it is off topic.
Another point is that of course the sifu is ‘above’ the student in knowledge, ability and attitude and to think otherwise is foolish…what is the point of trying to learn from someone who has no more knowledge and ability than you…they would not be able to teach and guide you in the area of knowledge and abilites sought. This is not to say the sifu is above the student as a human being…although many sifu may or may not have better character than the student…whether the sifu has good character and not an overinflated ego can be proven through the teachers acceptance by those of standing in the community who have good character, morals and intergrity…birds of a feather flock together.
A sifu does not NEED a student, rather it is the student who NEEDS the sifu (master). The sifu has his art regardless of the student or not…but the student does not have the art (or the full art) without the sifu.
Some students consider only the art as important and not the vehicle of transmission ie. the sifu who takes the time and energy to transmit that art. Without the sifu, the art is not transmitted and is lost. A sifu, of course wants to pass his art on, but not to those who are unappreciative of him as a person or to those with bad character and little integrity.
It takes 10 to 15 years of hard work, blood, sweat and tears and being under the guidence of ones own sifu to become a sifu oneself (after being granted this priviledge by ones own sifu). A sifu who has spent a significant portion of their life, blood, sweat and tears to become a sifu (master) will understand the above and will not teach someone who does not exhibit good character. Anyone who is not a sifu simply ‘does not know’, regardless of any other field they may teach in. In traditional kung fu, being a sifu and passing the art on is a whole different kettle of fish than being a teacher of mathematics or being a coach of some sport…no disrespect intended to those teachers/coaches…but to know, you have to ‘be’.
Then there is the issue of when or if a student becomes more than just a student…perhaps a friend of the sifu and his family as well…do friends count their favours to a friend and say ‘I did more for you than my own family’… no they do not…if they are truely a friend…again basic Thinking Errors 101 - if they do count them or compare favours.
A basic problem arises when the student ‘thinks’ he knows more than the sifu…‘I should be taught this or that, I DESERVE it’…again basic thinking errors 101…the sifu has the knowledge and years of experience and ‘he’ knows best when the student should be taught a particular form of knowledge…to guide that student so they reach their potential. A student who thinks they know better without having spent the same amount of years, blood, sweat and tears…like I said “just does not get it”. With this kind of attitude, any sifu worth his salt will not teach that type of person/student. This type of person/student may think they are developing on their own…but without the background knowledge and like I said the tremendous effort to become a sifu (master), they are just fooling themselves…when the blind lead the blind they will both fall into the water or be hit by a moving car…whichever comes first.
As I said, the art does not teach, the person who has mastered the art does…students learn from a person, not some inanimate vehicle such as the ‘art’.
Well, enough said about this, not going to spend anymore energy on it or students/people who have these thinking errors…like I said, those who put the art before people and their sifu “just don’t get it”. This type of person needs lessons in ‘caring’ - a basic human quality without which one thinks and acts like a criminal…not necessairily doing anything against the man made laws of this land, but certainly committing crimes against the ‘Spirit’.
GHD
Do you expect a call from a student if they are not going to attend that nights class? This was always expected of me. You always called your Shrfu if you were sick or whatever. But that being said, my Shrfu`s philosophy: if your sick, you come to school, and at least watch and observe. Kung Fu learning is visual, also.
Golden Horse Dragon
Have a seat. This is going to be long.
First of all, it is my understanding that scenario primarily considered is one in which the student is willing to work in body, mind, and spirit according to his/her abilities, and even beyond. Let us consider this positive setting, though mention can be made of other sorts. The emphasis is not on people who wish knowledge and advancement served to them.
The student has been accepted on the basis of that willingness described above, and true nature (which might not be apparent to the student). The sifu can judge this more quickly than most people because the perception is, or should be, deeper. Of course, development cannot be totally predicted, but that generally becomes apparent over a relatively short time.
If you are a teacher and you have students and don’t teach them ANYTHING, well… I am wondering if what you are really referring to is serious teaching in terms of progressive work in the art (whether to learn the system as a whole, or concentrate on parts, even on an advanced level, because that is what is right and possible for that student), when the student clearly isn’t doing the work that leads up to it.
When a teacher has such a student and teaches nothing to try to improve the resolve or the character or anything – then, just as the student is not up to par, the teacher isn’t either. It’s a two-way street. When you have students, you teach them!! I’m not saying to teach Drunken Form to a 1st year student who is hot to trot. I’m saying that part of the teaching is to engage the student in self-improvement so that further learning is possible. The student is there. You’ve accepted that person, even if on a trial basis. If students are wasting your time and theirs tell them. You do owe them that as well. Why else have them around, except, for income. That, sir, is honesty.
Many sifu’s need the students for income. It’s a business, and often stated as such. The students might be reminded that the teaching isn’t as it was in the old days, when long trial periods might have occurred in which the learning consisted of grueling stance training and the like. Some come right out and say, but no one would pay for that so I won’t teach it. Beginners often don’t understand what is being referred to and feel unworthy (of the groundwork) without cause. Without the correct beginning, the path is crooked, and the teaching less than it should be. There Are people who could make it all the way, and others, who would need consideration because of handicaps. In many instances, we’ll never know, will we? Whose loss is it? Everyone’s.
Sifu’s are human and their practical choices reflect their humanity. The Sifu chooses followers who are agreeable to him, who suit his needs. If the Sifu doesn’t have fine students of different levels and types, including carriers of the system, the fruit of his work withers as he does. I beg to differ. The Sifu does need students, just as students need fine teachers. The Sifu has his art. What does he do with it? What good does he do in the world if he doesn’t help people to realize who they are and what they can do, if they are so motivated by doing Kung Fu cause it makes them feel alive and purposeful? The art can and does go beyond that, but imo needs this basis for balance. And, to be strictly pedestrian in terms of motivation to teach at all, if a Sifu doesn’t need students, why isn’t he cloistered away where MasterCard is not only not taken, but has no value?
A gift. Really. Instruction of certain types is a gift from one spirit to another, true. However, students are often exposed to a pay-as-you go situation, in which sometimes they might see or feel a glimpse of something, especially if sifu feels feisty. While there is no point in dissecting the issue of ego, in what I have just described, it can be alive and kicking. It can be easy to attach to an art, without a commitment to a teacher or to have that commitment not be returned, but still love the particular art. What you might be describing is a disillusioned student, who is to be commended for continuing love of the art.
I would not necessarily accept the approval of any verson of the “old boy’s club” as verification of exemplary personal characteristics. Birds of a feather also raise h*ll together, and keep it quiet. Glass houses. Stones. Everyone needs to be seen as upright. Closed society. Oh, there are fights and departures, but enough room for both compassionate living and that which needs to have tracks covered or hidden. Issues of secrecy take care of some of that. For outsiders, the view is not always clear, and it is safer not to make assumptions.
Most students I have associated with, who perceive (with varying degrees of understanding), or at least are at the point of questioning what it is that is being transmitted, take an adept’s efforts seriously. Advanced transmission is something with pitfalls for both sides. There is risk here.
The art, the essence of the arts, and the agent of transmission are all important, but not necessarily equivalently so in all situations. In us, not equally, are qualities which give rise to creativity due to a combination of intense perception, experiences in consciousness, which find expression. This is where the arts came from in people. I have said before that while I appreciate what has come before me, if that does not prevail because it is defeated in some way (even by indifference), some form of it is likely to rise again from the mind and body of someone who feels driven accordingly. The transmission is so very important, but if it is not made, there is the possibility of another and another and another because I feel that is one of the reasons why we are here.
While, I realize that the martial arts can be a very special field, especially when the spiritual essence is awakened and becomes operational, a teacher of an unrelated discipline who is able to transmit a seed of knowledge into a students mind and have it blossom along with the totality of the person, has done a great service. In this world, a simple man with an independent and strong character, who knows how to choose the right helpers, is needed. because little makes sense anymore. People like that are needed. If they are bonified martial artists, good. If not. not.
The essence of martial arts goes beyond the individual arts, imo. What it has that is special are particular types of developmental procedures, which, in my view, are not always emphasized. Without those, you’re coaching, no matter what your professional rank.
I think we need to go backward and then forward into modern times to make mental discipline and creativity part of more lives, not just a special few. Not mastery for all, but opportunity for a foundation for all. If one is not given the tools, which is the basic instruction of how to start to discipline the mind and body (in accord with what one has to work with), then all is lost. Even a person in a wheelchair can do this. The Sifu owes the student who has entered the kwoon this opportunity. If it is not grasped, then the student is no longer a student. If the true foundation is not available at the beginning of training, then what’s to discuss?
I’m not going to touch on the topic of student/teacher disagreements over progress. I would agree that this can get annoying. It’s a multifaceted issue.
I will repeat that I also regard the transmission as very important. Yet, I don’t see the connection between putting art before people as it refers to students who might show more attachment to the art than to a given teacher, as I discussed above, and normal caring. Indeed, there are Sifu’s who see their arts as more important than just about anything. The bond to the Master involves more than normal caring. And the lack of such a bond can occur even when the student does care and is interested in learning. I don’t know if I am understanding you correctly here.
Crimes against the spirit. That is generally done by someone who has the knowledge and power to do so. Lack of caring can be a beginning, but does not necessarily lead to that extreme. The ice is becoming very thin.
Well, I’ve been at this for quite a while. Now, I have other things to do.
be well,
Cody