Some money, my time, and the respect I give any other human who demonstrates they’re worthy of it.
The “Chair” form of the “Objects” set will not be taught for a while.
I’d prefer that a student learns how to move WITHOUT an object before learning how to move WITH one.
In traditional Chinese kung fu, masters often didn’t collect money and taught for free.
Because of this, students had to abide by the master’s rules and perform tasks and stuff. I went through this myself and would have loved to do stuff for my sifu had he allowed me to (refused payment of any sort, even doing stuff).
On the other hand, most of us study in a paying situation in which people turn their hard earned money and time toward their training. How would you like it if you went to McDonald’s and you tried to order a Bic Mac only for the cashier to keep your money and say “Not yet - you must EARN your way toward a Big Mac”.
I’ve been in situations like that before too, and that’s outright robbery. Though I’ll not teach that “Chair” set right away to the majority of students, anybody who asks about it certainly can learn it from me.
I see it strictly as a business transaction. A student forks over the dough, the teacher forks over the teaching. Done properly, TRUE bonding between student and teacher can take place via this equal exchange.
Excuse me if I repeat anything, but the prior posts were very long and I have little time.
My Sensei is not only my instructor, he is my friend.
He has the same loyalty from me that any close friend of 20 years has from me.
We have done much more that train together. We have poured concrete, hunted small game, and eaten many grilled burgers.
“Not yet - you must EARN your way toward a Big Mac”
I loved that!
How are Westerners self centered for expecting something for their time and effort? If the instructor doesn’t owe the student anything how is the instructor himself not being self centered?
I owe him any fighting skill I may have, and plenty of good talks and commiseration. He’s a good, kind, generaous man whom I’d be proud to know and call a friend even if I had no interest in tai chi whatsoever.
what do I owe my sifu?
Respect, hardwork, money
My Sifu recently started teaching me taoist sexology. He was worried that my girlfriend was taking too much out of me. It would be too weird for me to see him naked, but he trains her for free with massage and chi work, so I don’t lose chi anymore.
this kind of selflessness is uncommon. He has helped every aspect of my life, my girlfriend seems happier and like her chi is flowing more. What more could I ask for?
:eek:
Psychic experiment, can anybody read my mine about what I’m thinking about Stacy’s post?
Feel free to answer with your favorite punch line
Cody
I think you may have missed some NB points in the post…of course if a sifu does not teach anyone he may be self-centred or he may not like to teach…his decision, but a sifu who does not mind treaching and then does not teach even those who deserve the teaching…then he would be self-centered…but a sifu does not NEED students, he may like to teach and therefore would want students, but students are not a necessity, but if a student wants to learn, he NEEDS a sifu.
GHD
Doesn’t sifu mean teacher? If it does then he needs students to be a sifu.
Rogue - thought I should put my two cents in here 
I owe my instructor alot, atleast as far as my martial arts go. I owe him respect, of which he shows me as well. I owe him loyalty because without we do not have trust.
As for fellow students, hopefully you can appreciate and respect each others paths through your study, even if you do it differently or differ in opinion on occasion, otherwise I am not so convinced you owe fellow students anything but the respect provided a peer. Part of your education you recieve at the hands of your peers.
Gold Horse Dragon
I think you are sidestepping issues. In a very narrow sense, in restricted environs, some of what you said can hold up. Practically speaking, in the world at large, it doesn’t, imo.
The sifu does not need students. Then the art (or the finest aspects of it) dies with him; and, the arts act in the world only thru him and a few selected others who practice (but do not possess) them. What a waste. Or he choses one or two (still students though), maybe wisely, maybe not. Still a waste, accompanied by assumptions which might not be so.
I consider the lack of common ground here to be sad. This is not a personal comment by any means. Grateful that we have been able to discuss this in a nonadversarial manner. If nothing else, that is important. Maybe there will be more hope for the future.
Cody
R5A;)
When you say you owe an instructor loyalty what do you mean by that? I can trust someone in a professional setting but not be loyal to them. Did you ever trust another instructor but are no longer loyal to them?
Loyal = Faithful to a person, ideal, custom, cause, or duty.
Trust = Firm reliance on the integrity, ability, or character of a person or thing.
Loyalty of which I speak is one that stems from the idea that you will stand by each other when needed, much like a trusted freind. Some people treat thier instructor-student relationships as a business transaction but I think to a certain extant it is good to get to know each other personally.
The reason I say this is so that as an instructor you can make adjustments to training or whatever based on someones personality as this can sometimes come into play in your training.
It was asked on a thread what would I do if I met someone better then my instructor. At some point we all commit a certain amount of our resources to a person to make it worth our while to stick with them. This doesnt mean you cant learn some things from someone else, preferably, your instructor is smart enough to see he has a learning oppurtunity as well.
OK R5A I’m gonna pick on ya
"Loyalty of which I speak is one that stems from the idea that you will stand by each other when needed, much like a trusted freind. "
Why? If you called your instructor up at 2 AM and said “c’mon over I have to take some guy down” would he go?
“Some people treat thier instructor-student relationships as a business transaction but I think to a certain extant it is good to get to know each other personally.”
What if your instructor doesn’t want to know you too personally or let you into his life? I have the relationship you’re talking about with my sensei but we became friends long before he became my sensei.
“The reason I say this is so that as an instructor you can make adjustments to training or whatever based on someones personality as this can sometimes come into play in your training.”
Heck, a good instructor should be able to do that without being your buddy. My TKD master had me pegged from day one and we have never seen each other socially.
Well allow me to retort. 
"Why? If you called your instructor up at 2 AM and said “c’mon over I have to take some guy down” would he go? "
Yep, and vice versa. I think this is possible als the responsibility you have to fellow students, unless they are causing trouble for themselves! Atleast its how I would treat them.
“What if your instructor doesn’t want to know you too personally or let you into his life? I have the relationship you’re talking about with my sensei but we became friends long before he became my sensei”
this is an excellent point. I would say that most people who are serious get to know thier instructors pretty well. I dont think you have to get into someones life so much as just get to know who they are. If my instructor came to me with a personal problem of course I would help any way I could.
“Heck, a good instructor should be able to do that without being your buddy. My TKD master had me pegged from day one and we have never seen each other socially.”
I agree, I should have said taht they get to know your temperment, strengths and weaknesses.
These to me are of course a small part of what lyalty is or could be but a good start.
No sidestepping…I think Cody, you may not have gleaned the full meaning and intent of my posts…thats okay. Most sifu in the past have only chosen one or two students to carry on their art and it worked as we still have those arts today…what really counts is the quality and not the quantity of students inheriting the art…in this way the sifu ensures the art will be passed on with quality. But as I said before, there are sifu who not finding a worthy student to carry on the art, would rather it not be passed on than to give it to someone they considered not to deserve it…these sifu had integrity.
Rogue…sifu means master…one can be a master and not a teacher, but one cannot be a teacher and not a master in Chinese martial arts…at least by old standards. A very strict translation of sifu means ‘father-teacher’ indicating the family hierarchy in chinese ma, but this does not mean that to be a sifu, one has to teach…although the majority do, if even only one student who they consider has the qualities to inherit their art.
GHD