Picture this: You and a friend are walking back form your Kung Fu class, you see some guy being pushed around, he gets hit, goes down and then his attacker starts “putting the boot” in on his prone corpse. 
Do you, as a martial artist, have a responibility to help? Would you assist a Police officer in restraining a criminal?
The point is, as martial artists, how much of a respnsibility do we have to use our skills for just purposes?
i would certainly suggest to the person that theyd clearly had enough and depending on his response probly be on my way. if he kept kicking the person or started on me i do something to help but i wouldn’t really want to get into a fight obout it.
i probly wouldn’t help out in the police restraining a criminal unless asked to by the officer cos i just don’t think theyd appreciate your help if anything theyd probly think you were just lookuing for trouble yourself.
I see what your saying about sorting it out if you came under threat, and I can appreciate the police senario, but both were examples. On a wider scale, you have been given valuable skills, (or at least you should have,) just how much help should we feel obliged to offer? Obviously, this is perhaps best answered by a well qualified martial artist, (in no way suggesting that Ish isn’t,) I just wondered what people thought on the topic. 
Many eastern arts stress helping others, and generally cultivate a “community” spirit. Is this just a dojo thing, or are these arts developing the character? 
Interesting thread… theres a lot of other factors u have to think about as well… heres a situaiton that happened to a mate of mine.
One time he had just come out of a club and saw this huuuuge well built black guy (200lbs+) hitting a girl (his gf?) hard. He also had another huge mate with him.
Now what would u do? Of course he wanted to help but he’s only arounf 5’9 and 155lbs… so he stood as close to them as possible (without getting in their personal space) and basically waited until it was safe to do something. No point in rushing in trying ot be a ‘hero’ and ending up getting YOUR ass kicked as well - then who can help u both?
As for helping cops… can u get charged with assault or GBH if u help ‘restrain’ someone?
Just my thoughts on something like that… it’s not as cut and dry as it seems
david
I absolutely would help out a police officer if I saw that they were in trouble. About 2 years ago a family friend who was also a swat officer and former gloden gloves boxer, went to apprehend a burglary suspect. They began to struggle and somehow the perp got a hold of the policeman’s gun and shot him in the head. He died a couple hours later. Point is that if someone had gone in to help “Rocky” (as they called him) would still be alive.
there is absolutely no point getting your ass whooped for a good cause, but if you felt you could get out of it alive… I wanna say that it’s not about being a hero, the most enduring things aren’t acreditted to soemone, (except the light bulb.) wow, how mature of me. 
True, there are so many factors around this kind of issue. I’m not sure the police would go through with GBH or assault charges if you had good intentions, but you never know. It also depends on how good your ground work is I guess, no good slapping on a solid joint lock if your gonna get bitten. :eek:
Sorry to hear about your friend ewallace.
Does anyone follow any
sort of moral code regarding the helping of others? doesnt any of your kwoons or dojos teach you to use your art in a just way?
or is that just fodder on the wall for decoration?
I WOULD certainly help the person being attacked and getting pummeled. i would also assist an officer if he or she was needing assistance, without question.
"YOU yourself and all that you possess should be dedicated to majestic causes; as warriors on the martial path it is our DUTY to follow the will of the gods, externally and internally, and serve the people." quote from the principles of BUDO.
MRTWS
good question.
it’s complicated in this day and age. on the one hand, willow sword has a point that morality dictates a certain course of action. (personally, i think that has f*ck all to do with being a martial artist, except in so far that your training makes you physically capable. i don’t personally see myself as somehow ‘ordained’ by my training. i do view myself as an essentially good person, though. and that dictates a certain moral responsibility.)
that said, picture this: i’m in annapolis one night with my girlfriend at the time. we’re at a bar with a bunch of people tragically younger than us. i’m all too happy to leave when it’s time, so i go out front and wait for everyone out there. while i’m waiting, i see a single, young skateboarder type getting hassled by a bunch of college-age guys. as far as i can gather, they mouthed off to him, and now he’s talking back. he’s not blameless though. he’s being very aggressive now.
anyway, one guy steps up, grabs the kid, slams him face down on the hood of a car, flips him onto his back, and grabs him around the throat. i step in. then someone jumps me from behind, grabs me, and pushes me away. i’m startled. i freeze. just as well, as it turns out. a third frat boy stops me and tells me that the first two are actually undercover cops. they’re arresting this kid.
so there are several issues: 1) according to the law, i was on the wrong side, 2) if i hadn’t of frozen under duress, i might have slugged a cop, 3) i did freeze under duress, because i wasn’t absolutely sure what the situation was or what the right side was, 4) i’m too pretty to go to jail.
i saw a bigger guy pushing a smaller guy around. and i reacted. (prompted by the un-police-like practice of flipping the guy on his back and grabbing his throat rather than leaving him face down and cuffing him)
that’s not to say that people shouldn’t help other people. but i do believe that it’s more complicated than the cartoonish, robin hood image i kinda wish it were.
stuart b.
I wish it was as easy as KA-POW ing the bad guys.
Here’s a my best answer.
While I do feel everyone has a moral obligation to help others (not just MAists), there are only certain types of individuals who can actually have the situational awareness, psychological processes, etc. to actually be a REAL help. Not EVERYONE went in to save people during the twin tower collapse. However the ones that did (police, firefighters, and civilians alike) have a certain ability to focus solely on the person in danger, and not think about themselves first. Getting out safely yourself is necessary to SAVE the other person. Therefore your safety becomes priority too because it will usually effect the other person’s safety as well.
A lot of times if someone tries to rush into a situation without thinking or having a game plan, they will unknowingly make the situation worse for the victim.
The police will generally ask for assistance from a civilian if they are not able to restrain someone, and backup is yet to arrive. The hard thing is in the judgment call. You have to be careful in your interference with certain situations. Sometimes your lack of understanding or training in real world scenarios can actually get someone killed. That isn’t an insult, but a reality. People who save people from burning buildings, rescue hostages, etc. are trained extensively for it. It’s not just having skill in MA.
With all this said, if you asked me to make a knee jerk response with a yes or no on whether to help or not help…
obviously my answer is to help always. Not everyone appreciates being helped by the way… But you do that kind of thing not for fame and appreciation, but because it’s the “right” thing to do.
But in order to really correctly judge that it’s the “right” thing to do, you must have experience, and training other than MA.
Ryu
AP, that’s exactly what I was talking about! Good story! Very good example there.
Ryu
in response to apwen
true it is difficult to know just how something starts and what to do about it when you are there witnessing.
i guess it would be a matter of personal judgment and what your heart and gut tells you. in your situation your subconcious stopped you and you were saved from going to jail.
in the matter of seeing a guy beating up another guy in an alley or in the parkinglot or maybe a women being attacked by boyfriend or stranger,it would clearly indicate some sort of action to stop it. i dont think it is a matter of being “ordained” persay by your school or your martial path. You in effect “Ordain yourself” when you enter the martial path. but most of us,me included, walk a side road to the martial path,we are enthusiasts.
and from time to time jump on the path and then jump back out again.
MRTWS
My first responsibility is to my wife and sons, and people around me tend to carry guns.
I have helped out, but usually you need to let things be.
generally ANYONE with a shred of common decency would probably do something - the myth that it’s only Martial Artists is just pure BS
david
very true, not everyone wants saving. a friend of mine tried to break up a couple who were threatening each other, (not very wise…) they both turned on him and he was forced to get away. In one way it worked, because they stopped threatening each other and drove off. As Machiaveli says, you want to make two states become friends, present them with a common threat.
again… not EVERYONE has what is necessary to do those kinds of things. That’s not a “moral” issue really… not if you see where they’re coming from. Water Dragon’s first priority is his wife and kids, and getting killed in a situation will put them in a terrible position for years to come.
Again, the judgment call is important here.
I have a habit of running into situations to help others. It’s just the way I am. But I better know exactly what’s going on, and exactly how to realistically react to a given situation in order for me to be effective… and that’s hard to do. Even for people who train to do it.
Good thread though.
Ryu
Originally posted by Ryu
[B]AP, that’s exactly what I was talking about! Good story! Very good example there.
Ryu [/B]
cheers ryu. but you put your finger on the… principles behind my example. you’re absolutely right.
in my example, i didn’t have a game plan. so when i acted, it was halting, unsure, and ultimately pretty ineffectual (which turned out to be a good thing, as it happens). and i wasn’t psychologically prepared to get shoved away like that. in short, i went in blind (lacking awareness, understanding, and commitment to a course of action). if things had been different, that could’ve cost me big.
beautiful point. the sort of scenarios we’re talking about require more than just an experience of martial arts.
stuart b.
Feel like a bit of a t**t now, gotta go till tomorrow, have fun with the line of conversation, I think it’s valuable. Peace, Joe
Re: in response to apwen
willow sword,
Originally posted by The Willow Sword
true it is difficult to know just how something starts and what to do about it when you are there witnessing.
i guess it would be a matter of personal judgment and what your heart and gut tells you. in your situation your subconcious stopped you and you were saved from going to jail.
in the matter of seeing a guy beating up another guy in an alley or in the parkinglot or maybe a women being attacked by boyfriend or stranger,it would clearly indicate some sort of action to stop it. i dont think it is a matter of being “ordained” persay by your school or your martial path. You in effect “Ordain yourself” when you enter the martial path. but most of us,me included, walk a side road to the martial path,we are enthusiasts.
and from time to time jump on the path and then jump back out again.
MRTWS
absolutely. it’s a judgment call. and some judgments are easier to make than others. a guy backhanding his girlfriend is a very different (and perhaps clearer) situation than the one i described. good point.
and i like the idea that you ordain yourself. nice. personally, i don’t think you do that when you take up martial arts. plenty of people train in martial arts and wouldn’t do what you describe here. that takes, as ryu pointed out, a certain sort of person.
but then, you do tend to describe the ideal where i tend to describe the actual. and, the more we do this, the more i think that’s a valuable mix.
personally, i think we’re ‘ordained’ when we actually do something. not the theoretical study. but the actual act. but what i like about your characterization is that it puts a moral framework in place ahead of time. one that might help to frame action later on.
this is where the system falls apart, though: without the sorts of specialized training that ryu referenced, we end up with a bunch of half-c*cked martial artists running around playing knight errant. if people are going to take it upon themselves to do good, then they need to do so in as informed and well-trained a manner as possible, which might include studies in psychology, first aid, etc. and at that point, you’re talking about something different, something bigger, than most martial artists. something bigger than me, anyway.
stuart b.
i agree
“this is where the system falls apart, though: without the sorts of specialized training that ryu referenced, we end up with a bunch of half-c*cked martial artists running around playing knight errant. if people are going to take it upon themselves to do good, then they need to do so in as informed and well-trained a manner as possible, which might include studies in psychology, first aid, etc. and at that point, you’re talking about something different, something bigger, than most martial artists. something bigger than me, anyway.”
i guess its not something that you go looking for,,i mean to go out and be a vigilante,,,,if it happens to cross your path then you have your decisions to make. as for the study of psychology,,first aid,etc. i guess that what we learn in the schools we study at,,we ARE learning a form of psychology,,reading body movements, attitudes, demeanors etc. in order to better asses the intent of the opponent. as for first aid,,i think it should be mandatory in ALL schools that you learn CPR and how to ressusitate an unconcious person as well as learn to render an opponent unconcious.
MRTWS