What are your favorite WC techniques?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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No uppercuts were thrown from the outside.. Proper hooks are tight and also not thrown from the outside..

Curvy long round shots are not proper hooks in my book and most boxers will set up hooks and uppercuts and they will normally come from the inside..

While some boxers might use footwork to get inside to throw a lead hook (Tyson) it will not happen from outside..nor will an uppercut..

The point is that these tools are mainly inside tools and blocking them is very low %, reaching for any punch will leave you open..

62

[QUOTE=YungChun;1078093]No uppercuts were thrown from the outside.. Proper hooks are tight and also not thrown from the outside..

Curvy long round shots are not hooks in my book and most boxers will set up hooks and uppercuts and they will normally come from the inside..

While some boxers might use footwork to get inside to throw a lead hook (Tyson) it will not happen from outside..nor will an uppercut..

The point is that these tools are mainly inside tools and blocking them is very low %, reaching for them will leave you open..[/QUOTE]

No, you are just plain wrong and wont even acknowledge the video.

You said Lead, which in boxing means initial strike. How many times did Frazier have to do that in that video to show you that??

And “your book” has got nothing to do with actual boxing technique. Left lead hook is a fundamental technique which can be done at close to long range.
I suggest you google “left lead hook” and see for yourself.

Uppercuts are rarer and harder to use as a lead but can be effective against a shorter opponent that bobs & weaves.

Id suggest you re-examine your knowledge of boxing

63

[QUOTE=YungChun;1078093]No uppercuts were thrown from the outside.. Proper hooks are tight and also not thrown from the outside..

Curvy long round shots are not proper hooks in my book and most boxers will set up hooks and uppercuts and they will normally come from the inside..

While some boxers might use footwork to get inside to throw a lead hook (Tyson) it will not happen from outside..nor will an uppercut..

The point is that these tools are mainly inside tools and blocking them is very low %, reaching for any punch will leave you open..[/QUOTE]
First of all to say never isn’t a good thing unless you’ve been in the fighting game personally and have seen all fighters. Also what we were doing was isolation drills starting from different points in time. We may start from a takedown even though takedowns are usually done after setups. Like I said before. Our guys do fight and are willing to test our skills against others especially in the NY area.
But, since you say that no uppercuts were thrown in that clip. Look at Ali around 2:44. Frazier did one around 2:50 :wink:
What part of there was a PRO boxer in the background coaching did you not understand? We will be having another full contact event real soon. Your students are welcome to participate. It’d be good for all of us to see what works and what doesn’t under pressure. It’s amazing that people will say something never happens when I’ve seen it happen.

64

[QUOTE=GlennR;1078094]No, you are just plain wrong and wont even acknowledge the video.

You said Lead, which in boxing means initial strike. How many times did Frazier have to do that in that video to show you that??

And “your book” has got nothing to do with actual boxing technique. Left lead hook is a fundamental technique which can be done at close to long range.
I suggest you google “left lead hook” and see for yourself.

Uppercuts are rarer and harder to use as a lead but can be effective against a shorter opponent that bobs & weaves.

Id suggest you re-examine your knowledge of boxing[/QUOTE]

We were discussing hooks and uppercuts…

Hooks..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp4J45kF-mI

Are not normally used as a lead…

They are not really an outside entry tool and therefore not normally a lead. I don’t care who does what. I never said no one ever did it or that scrubs don’t do it or that so and so couldn’t make it work, it can’t happen, no, I didn’t mean to make it black and white or say it never could happen..

The uppercut is certainly not a lead or outside tool as I said, again I don’t care who does what. I never said it was never done but in general boxers don’t do it, why because it’s an inside tool.

However this is about blocking them and blocking them is low % especially inside where you can’t see them.

65

Hmmm . . Lead hand uppercut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsKpxtOyyNA

66

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1078099]Hmmm . . Lead hand uppercut
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsKpxtOyyNA[/QUOTE]

Like I said Phil I am not saying it can’t, never was done, etc.. (if that was an UC) Is the exception the rule now?

You won’t find many boxing coaches that would say an uppercut is an outside tool or lead…especially as classically taught…

Jab/Cross and variations are long tools, hooks middle range and upper cuts and shovel hooks are closer range.. The closer range tools are going to be seen less as leads..pretty simple.

And of course this has nothing to do with VT blocking them.

Yes you got me I shouldn’t have said “never”… Never should apply to training passive VT blocking and hand chasing…

67

[QUOTE=YungChun;1078097]We were discussing hooks and uppercuts…

Hooks..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp4J45kF-mI

Are not normally used as a lead…

They are not really an outside entry tool and therefore not normally a lead. I don’t care who does what. I never said no one ever did it or that scrubs don’t do it or that so and so couldn’t make it work, it can’t happen, no, I didn’t mean to make it black and white or say it never could happen..

The uppercut is certainly not a lead or outside tool as I said, again I don’t care who does what. I never said it was never done but in general boxers don’t do it, why because it’s an inside tool.

However this is about blocking them and blocking them is low % especially inside where you can’t see them.[/QUOTE]

You said…

[B]You realize that no boxer leads with a “round punch” or uppercut right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgMVOTZ2bpk

Hooks and esp uppercuts are inside tools.[/B]

See the bit “no boxer leads”?

And as for your above nonsense

PLENTY of boxes lead with hooks and uppercuts. Do most of them? No… but plenty do… Plenty means lots, numerous etc

Not as many but still quite a few will happily lead with uppercuts as well

You dont make sense. You say “i dont care who does what”, thats ridicolous.
Especially when you get put on your arse by a lead hook.

And then you say they are hard to stop on the inside?
Well maybe if you dont know what you are doing. Shall i post a 12 round fight thats been an “inside war” where theres a thousand blocks on the inside

So i assume that at your School you dont train against inside lead hooks?

68

[QUOTE=GlennR;1078103]You said…

[B]You realize that no boxer leads with a “round punch” or uppercut right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgMVOTZ2bpk

Hooks and esp uppercuts are inside tools.[/B]

See the bit “no boxer leads”?

And as for your above nonsense

PLENTY of boxes lead with hooks and uppercuts. Do most of them? No… but plenty do… Plenty means lots, numerous etc

Not as many but still quite a few will happily lead with uppercuts as well

You dont make sense. You say “i dont care who does what”, thats ridicolous.
Especially when you get put on your arse by a lead hook.

And then you say they are hard to stop on the inside?
Well maybe if you dont know what you are doing. Shall i post a 12 round fight thats been an “inside war” where theres a thousand blocks on the inside

So i assume that at your School you dont train against inside lead hooks?[/QUOTE]

Sorry… lead left hooks

69

Very good Glenn you got me..

I shouldn’t have implied that no one ever did it…

That was not the point…

This was:
[QUOTE=GlennR;1078103]
Do most of them? No… but plenty do… Plenty means lots, numerous etc

Not as many but still quite a few will happily lead with uppercuts..l
[/QUOTE]

So to recap.. MOST DON’T…

Nothing like dragging out and hanging onto minutia that skirts the issue..

Oh, ahem, the issue was where are we seeing people blocking these things in actual fights?

[QUOTE=GlennR;1078103]
So i assume that at your School you dont train against inside lead hooks?
[/QUOTE]

If you mean unrealistic drills that train blocks that never actually happen in real fighting then no…

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1078105]Very good Glenn you got me..

I shouldn’t have implied that no one ever did it…

That was not the point…

This was:

So to recap.. MOST DON’T…

Nothing like dragging out and hanging onto minutia that skirts the issue..

Oh, ahem, the issue was where are we seeing people blocking these things in actual fights?[/QUOTE]

All cool Jim… im just in an argumentative mood :wink:

But ill bring up one point (from an old time Chunner who mainly boxes/mt’s now)
I constantly score with a left lead hook against WCers, regardless of lineage.

Id say its almost the best boxing shot against a WC guy

So i think Phils clip has merit as most WC folks really struggle against round punches… particularly at range as its outside their effective defensive and atttacking techniques (tan, fook, WC punch etc)

Whats your take on it if you dont like Phils? (no, im not being a stirrer anymore :0 0

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1078106]
So i think Phils clip has merit as most WC folks really struggle against round punches… particularly at range as its outside their effective defensive and atttacking techniques (tan, fook, WC punch etc)

Whats your take on it if you dont like Phils? (no, im not being a stirrer anymore :0 0[/QUOTE]

The reason what you describe may well be effective is because too many VT people train this kind of stuff to defend against X where X is whatever attack.. They train to block X and not only does it not work most of the time but you’d be hard pressed to find any example anywhere of it working in a live exchange…

VT’s method is to break them down…to attack their structure with yours in order to prevent the opponent from being in a position to get off these attacks… There are different ways to do that but drilling tan/da (or whatever) from the outside over and over has shown to yield the kind of results you report–poor ones.

72

[QUOTE=YungChun;1078107]The reason what you describe may well be effective is because too many VT people train this kind of stuff to defend against X where X is whatever attack.. They train to block X and not only does it not work most of the time but you’d be hard pressed to find any example anywhere of it working in a live exchange…

VT’s method is to break them down…to attack their structure with yours in order to prevent the opponent from being in a position to get off these attacks… There are different ways to do that but drilling tan/da from the outside over and over has shown to yield the kind of results you report–poor ones.[/QUOTE]

Yes, i get all that Jim, but tell me how you are going to deal with the angles created by the round punches (with foot work) on your way in to break his structure?

Personally, i like Phils clip… it gives him cover and gets him in to WC range.
Its drills like these that prepare you for the real thing

73

[QUOTE=GlennR;1078108]Yes, i get all that Jim, but tell me how you are going to deal with the angles created by the round punches (with foot work) on your way in to break his structure?

Personally, i like Phils clip… it gives him cover and gets him in to WC range.
Its drills like these that prepare you for the real thing[/QUOTE]

You want a fixed (do this) answer.. This is the problem.. It’s a sign of the problem..

And you show it here.. You just said it’s drills like these that prepare you for the real thing and yet I challenge you to find 1 (one) clip of anyone making this work in a real sparring/fighting situation. Can you?

74

[QUOTE=YungChun;1078109]You want a fixed (do this) answer.. This is the problem.. It’s a sign of the problem..

And you show it here.. You just said it’s drills like these that prepare you for the real thing and yet I challenge you to find 1 (one) clip of anyone making this work in a real sparring/fighting situation. Can you?[/QUOTE]

A sign of what problem?
Reality?

Yes i do want an answer to the lead hook question?

And FWIW i do something fairly similar to Phils clip against a lead hook… tan da will get you killed a million times over.

Youve rubbished Phils clip so id like to know how you’d deal with a lead hook.
If youre gonna bagf it… have an otion of your own

Enlighten us :wink:

75

[QUOTE=GlennR;1078110]A sign of what problem?
Reality?
[/quote]
Apparently…

Since you completely side stepped my challenge to find a single example of what you term “preparation for the real thing” (when you happily did so to prove your boxing semantics) you have no interested in reality…

[QUOTE=GlennR;1078110]
Yes i do want an answer to the lead hook question?
[/quote]
Then learn the method and go spar and find out…

Asking for a if they do X we do Y answer only tells me you don’t get it.

Go to a gym and ask what they do to “defend” against a hook.. Or how do you take someone down?

Do you think there is some special answer? The answer is: it depends…

The only constants in VT is the method, the tools and how you use them depends on the moment, the distance, the timing, the person, the skill of the people… I could tell you any number of things that could happen but you don’t see the reality that there is no fixed answer to that kind of question beyond what our core tactics and tools offer and how we learn to apply them in the moment…

IOW you won’t know until it happens and that assumes you know the VT method..

And I am not “trashing” Phil I am simply saying that I don’t agree with training blocking which has not shown itself to be useful.

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1078111]Apparently…

Since you completely side stepped my challenge to find a single example of what you term “preparation for the real thing” (when you happily did so to prove your boxing semantics) you have no interested in reality…

Then learn the method and go spar and find out…

Asking for a if they do X we do Y answer only tells me you don’t get it.

Go to a gym and ask what they do to “defend” against a hook.. Or how do you take someone down?

Do you think there is some special answer? The answer is: it depends…

The only constants in VT is the method, the tools and how you use them depends on the moment, the distance, the timing, the person, the skill of the people… I could tell you any number of things that could happen but you don’t see the reality that there is no fixed answer to that kind of question beyond what our core tactics and tools offer and how we learn to apply them in the moment…

IOW you won’t know until it happens and that assumes you know the VT method..

And I am not “trashing” Phil I am simply saying that I don’t agree with training blocking which has not shown itself to be useful.[/QUOTE]

Oh please… you showed poor knowledge of some fundamental boxing, i called you on it and you (sort of) acknowledged it.

Now when i stick up for Phils clip, you want to “VT method” me to death…
Do you really think i was looking for a special technique??
No i asked you as an adult, and someone who has had experience in this, what your take on it is and you come back with "go to a gym’

Id suggest i “go to a gym” 3-4 times a week and come from a level of experience in using WC against boxers that youd dream about

Next time i want a simple answer to a simple question ill ask someone else

77

As someone with a little (very little) boxing experience but a long time fan/student of the sweet science the correct answer to this, and almost every question in boxing :), is the jab. It doesn’t even have to land. Jab to make them cover, jab to throw off the timing, jab to intercept the attacking punch and to take up space.

Lots of comments about Frazier and Tyson but both of them had excellent jabs which they used to create space so they could get close and launch those awesome left hooks.

I think the bigger question is who are you training to fight? If you go on youtube and look up the east coast street fight vids you will see lot’s of punches being thrown exactly the same way as in Phil’s clip. You should almost never see a well training boxer throwing punches like that. If you do it usually means he’s gassed or lost control of his emotions. Either way his good training has gone out the window.

IMHO, the correct answer to that attack is (YMMV):

  1. As a grappler cover your head, change levels and enter his space for either a shot or a clinch.
  2. As a striker step in while firing a cover shot, let loose a series of body shots and upper cuts. Of course I prefer infighting and shovel hooks.

Where you go after achieving the above depends on your style, personal likes, the size of the opponent and a whole bunch of other things. What you have done though is taken that particular attack and turned it into an advantage for yourself for at least a small amount of time.

I will also point out that I didn’t do WC look enough for a lot of people on this forum and therefore my answer is obviously wrong and should be spit on before being summarily discarded. :eek:

I also have to point out that while I am not a fan of cookie cutter response they are a valid training methodology for introducing a new skill set and should be discarded as soon the the trainee is comfortable with the skill.

78

Wow! I didn’t realize that I invited all this ‘Non Wing Chun’ banter myself until I re-read my last post.

And this thread really was intended for such ‘technique’ based discussion no? So let’s see some names at least of common Wing Chun techniques instead of discussing the purpose of forms.

Is that all it takes for you guys to start spewing over a decent Wing Chun thread about your favourite Wing Chun technique?? I know, let’s talk about boxing… :o

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1078128]Wow! I didn’t realize that I invited all this ‘Non Wing Chun’ banter myself until I re-read my last post.

((You did))

Is that all it takes for you guys to start spewing over a decent Wing Chun thread about your favourite Wing Chun technique?? I know, let’s talk about boxing… :o[/QUOTE]

(Let’s not…?)))

Joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1078109] . . . .I challenge you to find 1 (one) clip of anyone making this work in a real sparring/fighting situation. Can you?[/QUOTE]
Does something have to be on youtube to be valid nowadays? If so, that’s sad. There’s a whole world of non youtube events that exist. In my fight with the kickboxer Jonas Nunez I tried it twice.The first time I stopped the uppercut but was too late for the round punch. I got hit so hard that I heard the audience go oooo. I got my bearings back front kicked him and broke by big toe. He tried it again and I was on it with perfect timing. It worked for me so I pass in on. I had Sifu Louie fake with the uppercut then round punch so that the student didn’t over compensate (chase hands) like I did when I got hit. The bottom line is that I was able to apply the jut from the simple dan chi sau exercise in real time at least once.
Anyway, I’m not here to argue but to share my experiences and learn from others.