what am I studying?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
1

I read that “northern shaolin vs wushu” thread and I think I am confused.

My personal situation:
My biggest fear with my training is to find out that the style I am training in is some watered down, “hollywood”-ed style. I was studying Long Fist Kung Fu and Zhaobao He Tai Chi in Connecticut. Unfortunately I had to move to Niagara Falls for two years because of my education. There are no decent CMA schools in the area so I decided to try this alleged Japanese style. There were a lot of things that seemed wrong to me, which I won’t get into here. In the end, I came to realize that this wasn’t a legitimate school and left. Luckily, I’ll be moving back to Connecticut soon, though not necessarily the same area, and will be looking for another school.

My question:
Regarding what I read in the thread mentioned above, I am concerned that I will end up at some school that teaches either a jazzed up or watered down style and be duped again. Like I said, the thread confused me, but I think I was able to understand that some Wushu styles were “restructured” in the 20th century to be “flashier” or some such. I’m concerned less about “looking cool” and more about studying a pure and complete (external and internal) style, or combination of styles.

I hope this all made sense and some of you could give me some advice to prevent me from getting suckered again. :slight_smile:

2

Ask your instructor. :smiley:

No, but seriously. If you reckon that your instructor is competent of what he’s doing, why not study there? I understand that you want a pure art, but if you’re aiming for effectiveness, the most important thing is to have a good instructor. If you still want to find out whether it’s an authentic art, try asking your seniors or, like I said, your instructior about the style’s origins and history.

3

I think he wants to know the differentce between modern Whu Shu and the traditional fighting arts so he does not end up doing Whu Shu and not knowing it when he really wants to be doing something more traditionaly oriented.

4

Details

Hello, StarBoy

Really what seperates Bak Sil Lum (Northern Shaolin) from a contemporary style such as Chang Chuan (which translates to “Long Fist,” another name for NSL) is the details of the movements.

Let’s use my school for an example. I study and teach at Sifu Wing Lam’s (traditional) school in Sunnyvale, CA. Our forms look good, but the movements all have a practical application that can be used in sparring or fighting. Those applications are the difference between “dancing” (as some put it) and traditional martial arts.

The easiest way to tell if your school is traditional (meaning that it is meant for self-defense as well as health) is if the instructors explain applications and - more importantly - if the applications make sense. If the instructors do not make applications clear right away, ask them “what is the application of this movement?” If they respond immedeately with a plausible explanation of the technique’s combat use, you can be sure that the style is traditional.

But what it all comes down to is the individual student. If the student trains with the intention of combat and is aware of and practices the applications of the techniques in and out of the context of forms, then he will be a good fighter. If he performs the form without regard to application or combat, then he will not be a good fighter no matter the tradition and lineage of his school.

If you are looking for combat proficiency as well as health, then there is a saying that might prove helpful: “It is better to spend three years looking for a good master than to spend ten years with a bad one.” Another is: “Some training is better than no training, but no training is better than bad training.” Remember that you have the right - some might say “the duty” - to scrutinize.

Good luck.

5

The flor pattern is not always the thing to look at. Tai Tzu is a really old Chang Chuan style (dates to at least 960 AD), but our forms are all over the place, and not done in an East/West linear floor pattern. That is more indicative of Shaolin sets.

The difference as i see it is the body mechanics. The traditioanl combat arts all seem to use a tucked tail bone, rounded shoulders type of body structure. The modern Wu Shu systems all seem to arch the back, stick out the chest and or butt to form pretty posses. They also tend to over extend the arms during strikes to get more snap as it is pleasing to the crowd.

Modern Whu Shu seeks to look powerful to onlookers.

The traditional combat arts seek to issue power into their opponents.

6

What a total bummer. I think that every school in Connecticut is Wushu. Nobody teaches a more traditional combat form. I don’t want to do something showy, else I’d study capoeira.

So apparently Chang Chuan is a modern form, what are the names of the other modern styles so I know what to avoid?

Also, can anyone suggest styles that are more traditional (northern or southern) so I know what to look for?

Thanks again.

7

Long Fist vs. Chang Chuan

The whole name thing is really confusing, and the name is not always indicative of tradtional lineage. For example, Chang Chuan is a term most commonly associated with modern wushu, but its meaning in English is “Long Fist.” Some schools of Northern Shaolin go by “Long Fist.” Very confusing.

Most generally, wushu styles go by the suffix “Chuan” (meaning fist), such as Nan Chuan, Cha Chuan, etc. But then there’s Tai Chi Chuan, of which there is both traditional and contemporary divisions.

Here are some names, though, that are normally contemporary:

Chang Chaun
Cha Chuan
Hua Chuan
Pao Chuan
Li Ho Chuan
Northern (Bei) Shao Lin Chuan
Kuei Ding
Ba Ji
Fan Zi
Di Tang
Nan Chuan
Tung Bi

But research is always encouraged. It is also the only way to really know if the school is traditional or not and, more importantly, whether it is good or not.

8

What about Ba Qua palm? Traditional? I found a school that teaches Wushu-Kung Fu and Tai Chi, though she also teaches a Ba Qua palm class I was thinking of checking out.

I also found this school which teaches Wing Chun. From what I gather it’s a traditional art. Though this place discusses Integrated Wing Chun, which makes me think it’s more contemporary. Also, it’s a bit pricey. Not that I mind paying a little extra for the right instructor, but I have to be sure it’s the right instructor. Though I am a bit hesitant to commit to just one style.

I was going to go back to my previous instructor when I move back to the area, but it appears all of her styles are more contemporary.

So far, that’s all I’ve been able to find for CMA instructors in Connecticut. I’ve been looking for a good few months or so now too.

9

I dissagree with this list

Chang Chaun - Tai Tzu Chang Chuan is over 1000 years old, and pure combat oriented NOT modern at all

Cha Chuan - this is another ancient Long fist style, descended from tai tzu or heavily influanced by it.

Hua Chuan - Ancient

Pao Chuan (Cannon Fist) - This predates Shaolin by as much as 1000 years according to some.

Li Ho Chuan - never heard of this one

Northern (Bei) Shao Lin Chuan - Some brances are very old, some newer. Most are combat oriented

Kuei Ding - never heard of this one.

Ba Ji - Ancient, taught to the Imperial guard at one point, pure fighting

Fan Zi - Ancient, mixed with Elephant boxing during the Ming dynasty to form Eagle Claw Kung Fu, Combat oriented

Di Tang _ haven’t heard of this one

Nan Chuan _ generic term for all martial arts developed south of the Yangzi river, could be modern, or ancient depending on who’s teaching.

Tung Bi - Possibly Tong Bei?? If so, this is an ancient Ape form dateing back to the early Sung dynasty, and possibly before that.

Some of these styles had influcance on the modern WuShu, but are not modern themselves.

Many styles can be played as modern performance arts, or traditional combat arts depending on HOW they are taught. It all depends on the body mechanics, and how much time is spent learning to apply the techniques in the forms to combat.

10

Also, modern schools often use quan instead of chuan, because it’s the correct way to spell it using the pinyin romanization, which in fact makes it sound more communist. Heh.

11

Cheng Ai Peng is a master of both contemporary and traditional wushu. Trying to label everything like you’re doing off of what some people say on the internet is not very good, imo. Where someone is from and how they were educated in english is going to have more effect than what they teach. Cheng Ai Peng may be one of the best martial artists in the world, and I think it would be foolish to give up on training there just because she knows contemporary wushu.

12

Whoops, I thought Cheng Ai Peng was your current teacher, lol. Sorry to sound a little mean :stuck_out_tongue: Anyway, she is awesome! Best of both worlds :smiley:

13

Just see if they SPAR using their techniques, StarBoy.

14

Trying to label everything like you’re doing off of what some people say on the internet is not very good, imo

I think I’m being misinterpreted. First of all, I’m not just going on the opinions of the people here (though I do respect their opinions). I will be checking out the school myself and seeing what they do, along with seeking advice from other martial artists in the area.

Also, I would not blow off an instructor just because he or she knows some contemporary style. I don’t even have a problem with learning contemporary style. However, I do want to learn some traditional styles as well and don’t want to limit myself to an instructor that knows only contemporary styles.

My only real reason for considering leaving my original instructor is that she seems to be no longer teaching the traditional styles. I think she’s gunning for the 2008 olympics hoping that they’re going to include Wushu Kung Fu and Tai Chi so she’s focusing on that. (Though I can’t be certain). Also, I may not have the option of living near the area where her school is.

15

Woo Hoo

I really am learning a traditional Chang Chuan… It does go east/west and there is no flashy jumping, kicking, spinning! Alot of the stances are super low though. Makes my muscles hurt after just doing the shortest of the 3 forms I know.

16

fau kiu

The museum might be able to aid you in a little research of your own.

Museum link