What about loyalty???

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
21

cheers ewallace.

kung lek, that doesn’t really shed any light on this though. the quality of being loyal leads to the obvious question, “what is loyal?” and the observation of devoted attachment and affection doesn’t preclude training with another teacher. (perhaps that’s your point.) if i have a child, i’m obviously going to be attached and affectionate. but that doesn’t make having another child an act of disloyalty.

that’s why i thought it was important to clarify what gold horse meant by loyalty. if he’s saying that you owe the teacher something, i’d say that depends on the relationship. the teacher. etc. if he’s saying that loyalty means sticking with one school, i’d disagree. but i figured i wouldn’t argue the point any further until i knew his stance.

stuart b.

22

Well…Traditional kwoons are based on the family system eg. sifu means teacher-father, sidai is ;younger brother to longer time students and ;younger son to the sifu, sihing ;is older brother to younger students and older son to the sifu…not to say that it is exactly the same as a biological family…sometimes the kung fu family is even closer and sometimes not…but it definitely implies ‘personal relationships’…some students just don’t get it. Besides, if a person’s spirit is only big enough to have loyalty only towards ones biological family…then this society is in trouble.
Loyalty often depends on the contextual event…but generally: a student should show it in different ways and to use some examples from these posts; ask permission from your sifu before going to learn another style (due to interest) or to another school (geograhical relocation), giveing credit publically (should a opportunity occur) to your sifu for what you have learned from him. There are others…these are just a few. As well, some students even lack common courtesy…something else that is needed not only towards ones sifu, but in society.
GHD

23

What about loyalty an’ ethics

Dear friends, I have a nasty example of not being loyal to somtehing that someone belongs from. Many si-fus - teachers - nowadays do accept and recognize a student from another style, martial art or association with a degree! Do you think that a degree is a proof for anything but a coloured paper? And what about those so-called smart guys that learne from video tapes? What are they connected to?
I particularlly do have all the freedom to discuss and talk about any subject withmy si-fu. He is my teacher, not my owner. But, should I have this same right if i begin changing and jumping from a kwoon to another?
I do agree, loyalty is something that a si-fu conqueer, adquire, win from a student. But it’s also something developped with ethics ain’t you think so?

Thanks for the attention, ps. takin’ a phd is not the same of practicing a hard-core and traditional martial art as Xing Yi. I’m taking my masters and practicing XY and for me this is totally different.

Best regards, from Porto Alegre, Brasil
Bruno (student of Marcello Teixeira)

24

Yes Bruno I agree loyalty is developed via ethics..and what of the ethics of the student? But so much is said here about the sifu having to win, aquire etc etc…this is starting to become ***backwards in that some students start to think they are doing the sifu some big favor by being his student…give me a break. A sifu is a sifu because he sacrificed, worked hard, exhibited true loyalty and courtesy to his teacher and acted with integrity. Then some student thinks they are doing him a favor by joining his kwoon…how utterly assinine.
GHD

25

Well, I DO feel as if the students are doing me a favor by joining my school.

They work hard for their money, and they have precious little time in which to spend it. Instead of going to the movies, they come to ME.

For that, I’m thankful and grateful. I’m not sycophantic, but I’m going to do my best to make it worth my students’ while. My art is versatile enough for me to adjust to each individual student’s needs.

As far as kwoon jumping goes, I have absolutely no problem with my students jumping in and out of my kwoon. In fact, I deliberately keep no contracts and charge monthly so that students can come and leave at their free will. Some students learn better by jumping (I was one of them), and I won’t hold any student who needs to go elsewhere. And any student of mine who jumped is welcome to come back at any point - as long as they show me what was learned!

If I’m as good a sifu as I need to be, my students WON’T jump because I didn’t teach them good enough. My experience has shown me that my students stick with me if I’m the right teacher for them. Imposing rules to keep them in place would only make them LESS loyal.

I don’t know how things are done in Brazil, but it seems that one must prove a certain level of martial competence via degrees before joining a kwoon.

That’s not how I run my school. I deal exclusively in beginners. If a student is so trained that he can bring me a degree, there ought to be nothing that I can show him.

26

i have to clarify that when i said that loyalty is expected, i meant from a student who’s spent a few years at the kwoon. obviously u can’t demand or expect it from someone who’s only trained for a short period, but what about a student who’s been there 5, 6, 7+ years? has a sifu EVER said to his students ‘i expect u to be loyal to me?’ i wouldn’t think so. but the expectation is there because the years already put into the training shows that they’re dedicated. i don’t see anything wrong with learning under a few masters due to whatever reason (like relocation or expanding interests), but i would have to agree that asking permission would only be the right thing to do. it’s just common courtesy to at least inform your sifu of x yrs that you’ll be training under someone else. if you hide it, then they’ll think there’s ulterior motives.

i would say it’s NOT insulting that the japanese altered some things. but we are talking about loyalty here, not adjusting physical techniques… japanese culture isn’t as vastly different to chinese culture as the western world is. loyalty is understood by both cultures in extremely similar fashions. imo the western world’s perception is a lil bit different. it’s like honour as well. you rarely hear white families nowadays talking about defending their family’s ‘honour’. not trying to turn this into a race debate or anything, just pointing out that the perceptions are different.

many good points apoweyn, too many to individually address though. but i would still disagree that a ph.d analogy is the same. many kung fu schools don’t have any belt rankings, so there is no set time where u can become a ‘master’. whereas with a ph.d u spend x yrs doing your degree, then another couple of yrs doing your masters, honours or whatver (not sure of the actual procedure), and most importantly u are recognised by an institution. once u get that piece of paper saying u have a ph.d, there is no arguments u are qualified to teach/lecture or are plainly informed about your subjects. these days anyone can declare themselves a sifu, and even that is still subject to huge debate, but to become a respected sifu requires years of training and hard work. not just spending 2 days a week training for 10yrs and earning your black belt. but i guess nowadays anyone can get a ph.d too (anyone heard of that martial arts association giving out ph.ds in er… martial arts??)

27

Like anything in life, those who influence you and those you influence is built up through the development of the relationship.

Crumpet - Getting a phd takes more than sitting in a classroom putting in the time. You must do the hard work and prove yourself to gain the “piece of paper”.

How does this differ from the whole “lineage” debate? It does not. How does it differ from effort and duration of study couple with ability to apply, understand and transmit that?

Personalities can conflict even after years of togetherness. THis does not mean respect is totally lost. A person who is true to themselves will always understand where the seed came from to grow that tree. And in a salient moment, that person will explain that to someone completely unrelated to the first relationship.

Loyalty stems from respect and mutual goals. You can still be loyal to a cause even though a schism has occured. THis is how things evolve and grow, even when original relationships suffer.

Too many people think eats an west are totally different, in my opinion this is poppy****, people are people, we love, we hate, we eat, we sleep, we work and if given time we expres ourselves through any number of ways. The east is not mystical more than the west, yeesh, just scan some literature from both cultures and you can see that. We all have philosophies, death rituals, demons and angels, etc etc etc.

Being a doctor is as much a “way of life” as being a sifu. Being a seeker is an honorable thing as much as being that which is saught through your hard work and effort.

Relationships can mend themselves with time or not, it is up to the hearts of those involved to either accept each other for what they are and what they have chosen, to recognize if this conflicts with a personal world view and to recognize if there is truly any damage done or if it’s only egos being frayed.

You only get out of anything that which you give to it.
Filial piety is not a bad thing in itself, but it can be corrupted like anything else under the wieght of pretense. west or east, teacher or student.

In the end, you only have one thing and one thing alone and that is yourself. If you cannot find yourself and like yourself through it all, then further examination is required, and even then…

peace

28

HKV…you obviously have not been a sifu very long…were you granted this title by YOUR sifu…if yes then you are a sifu but inexperienced and if not…well, then you are not a sifu.

Relationships in general and between sifu and student suffer when one or both members of that relationship feel they are not taken into consideration and cared for…in short they feel unappreciated…it has not to do with ego. So when a relationship has suffered one must ask themselves ‘have my actions or inaction demonstrated a lack of appreciation and careing’. If the answer is yes, then take appropriate action (Relationships can repair when a person who has wronged another genuinely apologizes to that person) to correct and heal. “No man is an island unto himself” and we all live in this world together and wanted or not there is an interconnectedness between all - people and people and the world…therefore no man just has himself. A person who just considers himself has a very basic thinking error. This type of thinking leads to much strife in the world, crime, wrongdoing etc. (many murders like themselves just fine and totally justify their actions because they only consider themselves as the most important). To truely be effective, more is needed than just a salient moment, for a salient momement reflects a spur of the moment thought…in other words, not much thought has gone into it. Schisims only result in division.
A little story: a sifu once had a student and a close relationship grew between the sifu, simo and the student. Over the years there occured some small frictions…only natural in any relationship, but nothing major. Then there came a time when the student had to leave. They parted on good terms with the sifu and simo takeing the student out for lunch, gave him parting gifts and saying to keep in touch. Well what happend after that was the student had nothing to do with the sifu other than receiving a cold mass e mail. Then it came to the attention of the sifu that the student was knocking the style that the sifu worked so long and hard at himself and which he took great care to teach to the student. After some time the sifu informed the student of his feelings about all this…but the student still only thought of himself and would not find it in his heart to take complete and appropriate corrective action. This continues to this date. How sad, but the student does not care.
GHD

29

Originally posted by fa_jing
Proper appreciation for having taught you something useful, should be enough. Loyalty has to do more with your personal relationship with the individual, rather than the teacher-student relationship. If you want to go study another style or something, your current teacher shouldn’t feel insulted. I just don’t see why some teachers feel like their students are obligated to stay with them. If they gave you something that you didn’t pay for, sure, but if they are charging you money, then they have been paid for the service and that’s that.

Would a good teacher not be open to bringing in students or teachers of other styles to spar or work out, so students can understand the differences? When I studied an okinawan karate style briefly in college, all styles were welcome to come work out with us. It was an interesting experience to do full contact sparring with students of the Chinese arts because it was so different than sparring with traditional karate students. As these are all combat arts, it seems practicing with other styles can only help one become creative and flexible and understand when various techniques are effective and how to adapt to your opponent.

Dean

30

Sadly I think there is a big difference between being a “sifu” and having a PhD. A PhD takes years of consistent study and the person has to actually show they have the ability to apply their knowledge, and do so better than competing students. A PhD needs to be given by a university to be credible. It may not make someone a superior human being but it does show they have committed themself to a course of study.

Being a sifu is a title that can be given by the person to themself. I can start a school of Kung Fu tomorrow and make myself a sifu, and some people do this. There are schools that will make someone a teacher after a few years of training only two or three times a week, for an hour or so… who would be considered a master in any other area after so little experience? Most sports would not even consider a person like this a serious player. Also, “traditional” sifus may be doing their students a big favour by giving them their pearls of wisdom, but many also fatten their bank accounts and egos while letting senior students teach their classes. To me, people like this are not worthy of loyalty, even if they decide to give themselves a title like “sifu”. Personally I save my respect and loyalty for people that are worthy of it, some are martial arts instructors, most are not. If instructors in the west do not get the respect that they deserve, it is because there are so many instructors that are not worthy of their positions and have cheapened their arts to the point where they are no longer taken seriously.

To me a sifu, to be worthy of loyalty and respect, should be a professional in their style, as in they have used it in a practical way and trained in it intensively to the exclusion of other things. They should also defend the good name of the style and be a good representative to the rest of the world. They should also not be treating their students as cash cows, or running multiple schools and just selling their name. If I only see my “master” for 5 minutes when he drops in to the dojo in his BMW, should I be loyal to the guy? No, the relationship is obviously commercial and not much else. Not that it is necessarily wrong to make money from teaching, just that you can’t have it both ways… either the students learn for a small fee and pay you in their respect and obedience, or you make money from them and they are free to come and go.

I think the latter is a more practical approach to modern society, where martial arts is hardly a matter of life and death struggle between schools, the closest comparison is where schools compete and students may have a conflict of interest. Free exchange of information is good for martial arts in general and keeps them alive and evolving… whether the exchange happens in the ring or mat or by students moving around it is healthy IMO.

31

I’ve been a sifu for quite some time, Gold Horse Dragon - not just in kung fu.

A sifu is somebody who teaches somebody else something. I’ve been doing that for years now, title or not. I don’t need a title for me to show a person something that he doesn’t already know - though my teacher DID grant me the OK to go out and do that.

I haven’t had students turn around and badmouth me after leaving my training. If they did, I’d be interested in finding out what they were saying so that I could improve myself if need be. And my students always know that I’m up for a friendly test of skills to see if they’re talking real stuff or not.

In fact, I have a violin student that is now teaching another one of my violin students. She’s a lot stricter on him that I was, and I’m proud of her because of it. I could be all snotty and say that my teaching student was knocking me, but I’m just not like that.

That student who’s knocking his sifu - LET HIM. By doing that, he’ll just run himself down. Or maybe he a legitimate gripe and it’s on the sifu to maybe take a better look. Either way, the student is no longer learning from the sifu. Done is done.

I’m not going to please everybody as a sifu, and I’ve had students come and go. I don’t apologize for not being the right teacher for every person that solicits me. If they have gripes about me, then they have gripes. It’s on me to care or not.

32

Good post.

33

HKV…I know very well what sifu means and have for 30 years, but it must be used in context and since we are talking martial arts, I used it in that context. Oh and by the way (but you probably alread know this)…to be a sifu, you have to be and do more than just be a teacher of a skill.
SD…in traditional kung fu there is one and only one way to be recognized as a sifu and that is to receive that title from your sifu. Giving it to yourself just does not count.
GHD

34

well now, theres a can of worms… :smiley:

Bruce Lee was a sifu, but was never, ever , ever given that title by any of his sifu or his sihings. yet in some parts of southeast asia he is a “god” of sorts.

there are many many mnay many, too many to mention sifu who heve never had the title bestowed upon them and have only “taken” it.

such is the nature of things. afterall, who had theaudacity to open the first university? I believe it was in france. and who wasto say they were the be all and end all of anything.

very confusing when all the pieces are laid out in a row infront of you. what to believe…what to believe indeed.

:smiley:

peace

35

Bruce Lee was an actor and a martial artist, but not a sifu.
Those who have not received it are not…simple…but I would have expected this response from you…my my how you have changed..maybe not…just reverting back to old behavior styles hey kl
GHD

36

There just doesn’t seem to be any point to even talking anymore at this point ghd. Y

You are certain of what you think I am, You are sure to find something negative regardless of 1000 positives. This is a constant between us. I have always found this trait to be unusual.

As much as you may think I have done you some wrong, the same is true on the other side of the coin. If you can’t see that, then what can I say.

I won’t even touch on the subject anymore and i will continue to be who I always have been. All the best to you and your endeavours.

peace

37

A sifu is a sifu because he sacrificed, worked hard, exhibited true loyalty and courtesy to his teacher and acted with integrity. Then some student thinks they are doing him a favor by joining his kwoon…how utterly assinine.

In the immortal worlds of knife fighter, boo sheet!

These titles are honorifics not a gauge of accomplishment. They are a sifu/sensei/instructor because they take on students, usually for cash. How utterly assinine to automatically assume these attributes in someone because of a title.

Bruce Lee was an actor and a martial artist, but not a sifu.

He taught a group of people, and by his writings still continues to teach a very large number of people. I’m no longer a fan of Bruce Lee but even I could say the title of sifu could be his.

38

As usual kl, you run from truths…typical thinking pattern of yours. when you are unable to get out of something you run or make out like the other person has done something wrong. I have stayed quiet on this for a long time even with some of your posts where you just do not portray accurately situations or information. But here you come into my posts with nonsense. I will stay quiet no longer. You should have let peaceful tigers alone. As I advised you before, you could have acted in a proper manner as defined by common courtesy and Wude and prevented all this…but instead you do not. You should follow your end greeting in your posts and truely seek peace. You will not attain it behaving as you have.
There are two good articles in the most recent issue of IKF magazine on traditional martial arts, loyalty, courtesy and the sifu/student relationship. Read and learn. You have certainly not learned these lessons yet.
GHD

39

Gold Horse Dragon, you’re clearly into the lineage thing.

The thing is that lineage has never physically kicked anybody’s ass in a fight.

That’s why titles and lineage are MEANINGLESS to me.

As I said, I stand by my traditional definition of what “sifu” is. By my ACTIONS, I have been a sifu for quite some time and will continue to be.

Nothing you SAY will convince me or my students otherwise.

40

In addition to sitting through classes for a certain number of years, to obtain a PhD you must also pass a series of comprehensive exams detailing a knowledge of the entire area, produce a piece of original work pertaining to the area, and adequately defend the work from criticism in front of a panel of judges. This takes an average of seven years after an average of four years of undergrad, for a total of average eleven years of eduation. After obtaining a PhD, you are still not, in fact, considered worthy to teach/lecture/etc without question. In fact, you’re now considered to be starting your career, not finishing it. What you’re descibing is roughly equal to ‘having tenure’, which is likely to take just as long again - just as long of time spent on full time teaching and research without complaint; and it’s not guaranteed, and only possible if you obtain the upper echelon of job positions in your field.

Just for sake of discussion.

If you’re discussing the standards by which one may be called ‘sifu’, it’s important to keep in mind the difference between some ideal or traditional standard and what actually happens currently in our culture. With respect to the former, many people seem to be forgetting ‘teacher’ is only one-half of what sifu means. With respect to the latter, it is undeniable that there is no standard whatsoever, and anyone can (and does) claim this title.