I’m new here and this is my first post, so dont’ get ****ed if this subject has already been discussed. I was wondering what you guys thought of Aikido. Since I live in a town with only Karate, Judo, and Aikido to choose from, I’ve decided to get some advice from you guys. After reading the “Best form of Karate” post it seems there are a lot of “enlightened” (i use that term loosely) martial artists who have useful wisdom and experiences in many arts, so from that it seems this is a good place to turn to for information. So on to the typical questions: Do you think Aikido is a good for self defense and is it useful in street/reality situations? Do you think it’s a complete art since it lacks punching and kicking? Do you feel it has been watered down in America at all, such as certain Karates? Do you like a specific kind of Aikido? Well, I hope to get some usefull opinons on this and hopefully a couple of good fights. Thanks in advanced to anybody who respondes to this post.
Hi.
May I suggest to ask that question on:
That Board deals exclusively with Japanese MA, and I think you can get a better answer in their Aikido Forum.
Truth about combat and martial arts
Ruah,
You asked about aikido. I have never trained in the system, but an aikido club had rented my school mat for several hours a week while they were in transition (relocating to a new school). I have also sparrred with some aikido guys. The man who created Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba is dead. From what I have read and heard people say, his skills were amazing and he defied natural human capabilities. But, that was him. And, he’s dead now. Since then, only a few have reached any skills which could in any any way resemble what Ueshiba could do (Tohei was one guy, I can’t recall the names of the others).
You don’t need an accomplished martial artists to tell you, that in order to defeat a man bare handed, you have to have the following attributes.
- Striking 2. Joint Manipulation 3. Throwing or disbalancing 4. Strangulation and Choking. You also have to be skilled in four ranges of combat. 1. Kicking range 2. Hand striking range (short range) 3. Clinching/Trapping range 4. Ground grappling range. Unfortunately only a handfull of arts trully delve into all these ranges and/or attributes. Aikido has strong wrist locks, but they have zero striking ability. They can’t throw or take a punch. Aikido punch defenses are geared toward your opponent over commiting. You keep hitting them with a jab or thai style low kicks to the highs, and the fight is yours. How can a martial artists teach you to perry, bob and weave, and counter punching or kicking, if he never threw a punch or a kick? You will hear stories of Morihei Ueshiba’s skill and see his picture on the wall, but keep in mind that Ueshiba was a master of several arts. And, unlike modern aikido masters, he tested his skills in combat long before he created aikido. I personally have heard stories of aikido guys doing well in bar fights. Well, on those two occasions, upon meeting those guys, I realized why. Both were over 6’2, and weighed over 230. Both were cops and had boxing experience. Though both studied at the aikido club to learn restraining techniques, in the physical altercation they were involved in, no aikido was utilized.
So here is what you do. Study Judo for its hard workouts, take down skills (the best), ground grappling, submissions, and choking techniques. If the karate school is not good, don’t even bother signing up. At least in Judo, you emediately get feedback as to your skills effectiveness. Try local boxing gyms to suppliment Judo (I have seen guys do quite well in street fights and no rules competitions with just Judo and boxing). Judo is also great for learing escapes from pinning positions and grabs. Actually, its more effective in that department than aikido, since Judo guys always practice with a none cooperating partner and with full resistance. At some point if you want to learn funcky wrist locks, possibly sword play, and escort techniques, take Aikido. For now, save your money. I think in Judo, or karate you would also meet more hard core martial artists who have crossed trained in other arts (wrestling, boxing, karate, kung fu). Aikido is a harmouneous art. I think the overall student body in aikido would be different than in your typical Judo or good Karate dojo.
If you ever want to find good open training partners, check out the www.submissionfighting.com forum. Click on the Underground Forum. You can also find some hard core guys (who like to train for street only) under www.russianmartialart.com You can also talk to some accomplished Judo grapplers. Good luck
MA fanatic
There are many different styles of aikido, each with it’s own character.
To read more about what aikido actually is, instead of what it is not, try:
They have lots of text and video.
Check out all of the vids…some are very nice and dancy, others more “martial”.
Keep in mind that aikido is an art that seeks to unify mind body and spirit, that leads to the ability to defend youself.
Taking up any martial art should be a matter of personal taste and goals. I have stopped training in the environments that MA fanatic describes not because they are somehow inferior, but because they are painful, competative, and aggressive. To be fair, I already know that I can defend myself, so I am not looking specifically for that kind of teaching. I also know how to strike and have usable groundfighting/standing grappling skills. It is these skills, and some excellent teachers/training partners, that have helped me appreciate aikido all the more.
If you decide not to study aikido (if self defense in an agressive sense is you immediate goal), perhaps you should give it a second look in the future. I did and I couldn’t be happier with my training.
Good luck and post any other questions you have :).
P.S. Most Japanese arts/instructors can be researched at length on the web.
Aikido is a good style, but it has a very shallow learning curve, in my estimation. You have to be trained at it for a long time before you’re able to confidently handle trouble.
I have never met an Aikido person who could fight very well.
I mostly agree with MA fanatic on this one.
My kung fu friends and I used to go around to different Aikido schools and watch classes, while we were on a big chin na (chinese wrist & joint locks and manipulations, many kung fu systems incorporate) practicing binge, and we found that even the Sensei’s of major dojo’s wrist locks were only mediocre compared to high-level chin na…and that was all they had.
They practiced very unrealistically, and never assumed that the opponent would be a skilled fighter, quite the opposite really. So based on my own observations and personal experience (and this seems to be the general consensus), I could not recommend that path if your main objective was to learn effective fighting techniques.
But don’t just take my word for it, take red_fists advice and converse with some skilled aikido guys on another forum…after all, we’re mostly kung fu junkies here. And go check out all the schools for yourself, a lot depends on the individual quality of the instructor and class. Go with what you like best. If you have the time and money, take all three schools classes and then decide. Maybe take karate and judo simultaniously?
Good luck with whatever art you choose!
I think we all agree that an art is only as good as its practitioner.
Aikido shouldn’t be dismissed as useless. Tohei (one of Ueshiba’s best students) teaches in Chicago and has a rather successful school from what I hear. He also is instrumental in teaching some of the police force in restraining techniques. However, most aikido students I have met, cannot fight. I believe in the asthetic part of martial arts. Certainly there should be a spiritual component. But, if you’re looking for an art, or combination of arts, to defend your loved ones, don’t enrolle in an Aikido school. Why? Because the art is one dementional. As a matter of fact, the toughest Aikido stylists I have met, have also cross trained in arts like Judo, Kendo (which is also a part of some Aikido training curiculum), Karate, and Jujitsu. A smart martial artists knows what he doesn’t know. If you search the Aikido forums, you will most likely get a lot of Aikido enthusiasts who will tell you that their style is best. I say, go to all the schools in your area, and see for yourself. It doesn’t take a martial arts genius to see what techniques you can relly on to defend your family, and which techniques will fail.
MA fanatic
i’ve trained in Aikido for the best part of 5 years. Although i don’t train in it properly anymore, i wanted to share my experieces. I hope they are some help.
As many people have said: it has a long learning curve, and many people can’t use it to 'fight…
I agree that it has a long learning curve, but then so do arts like Taijiquan, Xing Yi, BaGua, even the likes of Shaolin. These systems all concentrate on correct form, footowrk, position etc. which is developed over a long period of time. In my Aikido practise, i have found that to be very similar. To start with, you spend a lot of time learning how to fall and do footwork. That’s important. Also the techniques done with partners seem to be ‘unrealistic’ (as many have said already). Those are just to teach you how to deal with energy, and to practise safely. If you have a good Sensei, he should also teach you techniques to use for ‘self defence’, even against a skilled opponent. in Aikido Atemi is taught, if you find the correct instructor of course. Actually, the atemi that i’ve seen and had done on me was very powerful, because usually they are already taking your balance/deflected your energy as i was hit! 
Most people who see Aikido, only see the throws and takedowns when you spin around your partner and go all over the place. There are also many techniques which are much more direct! Of course they still follow the principle of deflecting and using the opposing force (as well as your own).
Aikido is made up of a core set of techniques (i forget - i think 7?), which has many different variations depending on the circumstance. I think it’s very well thought out because of this.
You also train with weapons: those being the Bokken (wooden sword) and Jo (4-foot pole). Some teach these once you have graded and are ‘higher’, others teach everything together at the same time. These sword skills came from Japanese systems, and are what Aikido is based on. They are still relevant today, helping you with distance, timing and positioning as well as focus and intent…
i’m starting to ramble now 
hopefully some of the others here who have trained in Aikido will post (i know there are ppl who have trained for many years).
david
Here is the problem with Aikido I have seen. I am sure many will agree. They teach to counter over commited punches which no one throws. They teach to counter over commited kicks which no one would ever throw. They teach to counter sword attacks, but have they ever trully tried to counter someone skilled in Aido or kendo? No. Have they ever sparred against someone who uses the jab to set up a KO punch combination? NO. Have they ever sparred against a skilled power kicker or a set up kicker (such as TKD, Kyokshinkai, or Muay Thai fighter)? NO. Have any aikido guys in class ever trully go against one another with full resistance? Not really. How can someone teach another the proper way of countering a punch, kick, or tackle, if that person him/herself does not know the mechanics of a good punch, kick or shoot? It’s unrealistic. I have seen tough Aikido guys, but all have crossed trained in other arts.
MA fanatic
Today I spoke to a friend of mine who teaches an eclectic system combining several martial arts with muay thai kick boxing. He made an interesting point. When juding an effectiveness of an art, just ask yourself, “would I want my daughter, wife, brother, sister, father, mother, etc…study this art should they have to defend themselves within six months?” When it comes to Aikido, I’d have to say “NO.”
MA fanatic
MA Fanatic said:They teach to counter over commited punches which no one throws. They teach to counter over commited kicks which no one would ever throw. They teach to counter sword attacks, but have they ever trully tried to counter someone skilled in Aido or kendo? No.
Again, it depends on the dojo. I have been to different Aikido clubs when i was actively training: you run in with a punch from a mile away! They do the technique, you breakfall…it’s like that. I’ve also been lucky to study at some dojo where they teach you techniques that DO work against a kick, proper grab, shoot or jab etc. The throws and things are very impressive, but all the Aikido you need to do in a self defence situation is to parry or move! That’s the Aiki part. Then you can atemi, lock, throw, f@rt or whatever you like.
Have any aikido guys in class ever trully go against one another with full resistance? Not really.
You would be surprised with what happens in class! By it’s very nature Aikido is not pitting strength against strength (except when you’re a beginner) but when practising techniques, it often gets very ‘energetic’. I’ve done Muay Thai and Judo before as well, and often end up just as saturated.
Have they ever sparred against a skilled power kicker or a set up kicker (such as TKD, Kyokshinkai, or Muay Thai fighter)? NO.
You could say the same for anyone who does Taijiquan, Xing Yi, Bagua… On the flip side, has any TKD player, Muay Thai boxer etc. gone up against someone who does Taiji or Aikido? Probably not… Until you get a lot of experience in IMA, i think it would be very difficult to use it effectively.
They teach to counter sword attacks, but have they ever trully tried to counter someone skilled in Aido or kendo? No
The defences and actual sword techniques found in Aikido come from the Aiki JuJutsu style the founder had studied for a long time BEFORE creating Aikido. Hence, they are very similar to Ken Jutsu, Iaido and Kendo. Although i have never defended against a real sword (i just run :D) i have seen many demonstrations of sword defence, when it is a live blade, done with real focus and intent. The techniques do work 
You just have to be good!
would I want my daughter, wife, brother, sister, father, mother, etc…study this art should they have to defend themselves within six months?"
Depends on their reason for studying… if you have to defend yourself within 6 months, i wouldn’t really say you would have a much better chance than if you hadn’t trained… depends on the circumstances (element of surprise, if your assailant has a weapon, how many, fear etc.)… But you also have to think of the other attributes martial arts training develops: the mind, awareness, health. Aikido is very good for all of these (properly trained i mean).
I guess it just depends on your reasons for training and personal beliefs
david
Dez,
You make very interesting points. In truth, I have only visited 3 Aikido schools. Actually, one of those three rented out mat space at the dojo I trained in at the time. In all situations I have seen people practice what looked like effective self defense technques in what I would call a vacume. Hardly anyone resisted any attempted grap, joint manipulation tactic or wrist throw. As or kendo and aikido sword techniques, I have heard on several occasions (this was even addressed in one of the Black Belt Magazines some time back) that a skilled kendo stylist would not falter under aikido sword defenses. I also heart that Morihei Ueshiba was an expert swordsman, but took out some of the deadlier sword play techniques and strategies when formulating Aikido. As for my family training in any art should they have to defend themselves, I would never chose aikido. Plain and simple, its a one dementional art. I would rather have my wife (who is 25 and fit) study an art like JKD (which address all ranges of combat and all necessary attributes), than spend years learning aikido. That would be my own personal preference. I’m sure many would agree. If, however, my 61 year old mother wants to practice martial arts for health, stress release, psychological and physical workout, I would chose aikido for them. As for not sparring against other arts, I think if a school (not even an art but a school) states that it is teaching self defense, it owes to it to the students to teach realistic self defense. If a tai chi chuan school does not teach the combat applications (or Dim Mak pressure points) of its forms, it has no business stating that the school teaches self defense. I have the same problem with TKD schools who claim to teach self defense, but drill strictly competition sparring drills.
MA fanatic
good points I agree with some, but disagree on the others…
As or kendo and aikido sword techniques, I have heard on several occasions (this was even addressed in one of the Black Belt Magazines some time back) that a skilled kendo stylist would not falter under aikido sword defenses.
Dunno about that? Kendo is a sport, with limited target areas etc. Aikido’s sword techniques are from Aiki Jujutsu, so can be more nasty… Dunno much about either to be honest. But if it was a Kendo article - of course they would say they were best!
I also heart that Morihei Ueshiba was an expert swordsman, but took out some of the deadlier sword play techniques and strategies when formulating Aikido.
Just because you don’t see the techniques on the surface doesn’t mean that they are not ‘there’. For example, take a technique called tenchin-nage. When training, you parry the attacking arm, and proceed to step through, meantime using curving downward pressure on your partners shoulder to make them fall down… (i hope that describes it well enough?). In reality though (for ‘self defence’ for example) you would still parry the blow, and then use a well timed palm to the chin to knock them down 
That can’t be done during training as it is too dangerous, so the other way is used instead…
I’m unsure what you mean by “its a one dementional art.”
I think if a school (not even an art but a school) states that it is teaching self defense, it owes to it to the students to teach realistic self defense.
I agree here. But what do you mean by realistic self defence? If it’s what i consider, then most Karate dojo’s, boxing, TKD, kickboxing, MMA etc. would all not be teaching ‘self defence’ either! The techniques they teach you may help you in an encounter, but it is not guaranteed. Same for Aikido or any other martial art. If you understand the principles of the style, you should be able to apply them for self defence. It’s not always 100% as outside factors are involved (as i said before). First of all you have to be healthy though, if you don’t have that, then how can you fight?
If, however, my 61 year old mother wants to practice martial arts for health, stress release, psychological and physical workout, I would chose aikido for them.
I find that quite interesting The aikido training i have had has saved my @ss in many of the encounters i have been in… for example: i was mugged from behind, and pulled down to the ground. From Aikido, i learned how to curve my back slightly so i can land on my back, not winded etc. If i’d landed the other way, it would have been much worse!
If someone in a pub or club wants to fight, they usually push you or grab you. Straight away i either take them down to the ground with an armlock (Nikkyo for example), or take their balance so i can strike.
Hardly anyone resisted any attempted grap, joint manipulation tactic or wrist throw.
I don’t even train in Aikido anymore (properly - i still play with friends who do). Now i do Wing Chun and Qigong. But i respect Aikido a lot because personally i find it to be an impressive skill. I guess it depends how you train it though: if you spar and apply it with different styles/people then you will learn how the techniques work for self defence… It’s just many people don’t. In training, especially for beginners, you tend to find that people panic when a technique is done on them. They tense up and go all stiff - that leads ot injuries. Their breakfalls don’t happen and they smack on the ground, their arms stiffen up etc and they generally can’t move. You have to learn how to relax as the technique is done. There are counters to each and every technique, but tensing up just makes the other guys job easier
Anyway, this is an interesting discussion. What martial arts background do you come from?
david
I trained in Kung Fu (Wing Chun, with a lot of Chi Na training) for about 4 years. At the time I had more time on my hands so trained like a fanatic 6 days a week. Then my school relocated, and I wanted to perfect my kicking. So I found a Korean guy in the area who ran a school teaching TKD (he was a 5 time Korean national champion 6th dan), Hapkido (5th dan), Judo (he was a 2nd dan…actually his father was a coach for Koreas Olympic Judo team) and boxing (the guy boxed for many years and was a boxing champion of Soul Korea in mid 80s). Stayed with him for 7 years. He taught in for 12 years here, before he relocated. In 12 years he only gave out 6 black belts (all of whom started with him. I had previous training so he game me a black belt after 7 years). Then I went to train in Kyoshujitsu for a while, but found the art based too much of its techniques on meridian pressure points. My teacher was a student of George Dillman and Oyata before that. I didn’t stay at the school for too long. Finally experimented with some grapplers and realized that I lacked in the ground game. So joined a gym where they had teachers in Muay Thai (from Chai Serasute), JKD (some of Larry Hartsells and Dan Inosantos guys), Brazilian JJ (Machodo jj) and Shooto (there were a couple of instructors who were certified by a shooto trainer named Yuri.) I stayed there for 3 years until that school relocated. Now I train in bjj under Caique (the guy who used to teach at the Gracie Academy in CA). But, even though I’m a formal student, I always, from day one, took seminars from anyone who could teach me anything. I have met Dillman, Vunak,
Eric Paulson, Vladimiar Vasiliev (have all his material also, the guy is an awsome technician…actually very aikido like techniques, www.russianmartialart.com), Angel Cabales, Remy Presas, I think that’s about it.
MA fanatic
Sounds like you have had a very diverse background
Actually i am much the same: i started with Shotokan karate when i was 8 years old, and continued this until i met my Sifu. It was good, covered traditional kata bunkai and also competition kumite. In later years (after my Sensei basically retired), it tended more towards the competition, which is why i eventually stopped training.
When i was 14 i also took up Boxing, as it was right after my Karate class. Learned many useful things there. From then i moved on to Aikido when i was 15 and studied that at the same time as Boxing and karate. Gradually, as my views of martial arts progressed, i gave up Boxing (though still train a little). I was looking for something that is more ‘efficient’, which is why i eventually found Wing Chun and have stuck with it
The last 2 years before i met my Sifu i dabbled in other styles such as Muay Thai and Shorinji Kempo (which i highly rate as a JMA). Now i’ve found him however, it’s like i have ‘come home’. I really want to understand the skill more…
david
Aikido is not just a series of techniques for countering specific situations. It a systematic method for developing aiki, the ability to harmonize with the strength and will of another.
With that in mind, questions such as “what if an aikido guy goes up against a boxer” becomes irrelevent. (As a side note, you are one of about a gazllion people who have asked this question, many of them with their fists, and an aikidoka worth his belt will be able to answer).
When I came to Shin Budo Kai to think about studying aikido, I had the same exact questions in mind. So, I picked out who I thought were the hard cases and went at it. I threw punches, went for takedowns and choke…all the good stuff. Fortunately, they were not offended and were glad to answer me with throws, locks, strikes, etc.
Also, it is very important to resist techniques from your partner in a constructive way. You need to slowly build your ability to avoid having your technique stopped through recalcitrant resistance (using muscles to stiffen your joints). Also, many aikido techinques are built around the idea that the person will resist. It is that resistance or attempt to recover that leads to successful execution of the final technique. Eventually, resistance and attack becomes a gift.
I would not be studying aikido if I hadn’t used my san shou experience to test it out.
I had a different experience with Aikido. As a matter of fact, as long as I kept using a jab, no wrist lock worked. As a matter of fact it wasn’t hard at all to keep circling the guy setting up puches with jabs and throwing low kicks. I also had no problem taking them down with quick shoots toward the legs. I would throw a few jabs and shoot in. And, I’m not even that good. Now, for the record, I haven’t sparred with all aikido guys. I have only visited two schools and sparred in one. So my experience is limmited. I’m just writing about the experience I had. I am at peace with the thought that there are awsome aikido guys who could woop my but.
MA fanatic
good post shaolinboxer
you explained everything far better and in more detail than i could…kinda got me thinking as well.
david