What lineage are those guys from in that vid? Euro LT ?!
It’ s coming from one of the Yip Man - Leung Ting lineages in Germany
It’ s coming from one of the Yip Man - Leung Ting lineages in Germany
That’s what I figured…it looked it.
FWIW,
Emin Boztepe on watching that Estonian WT clip:
‘Hey they’re still doing the drills I showed them!’
‘Sloppy, but it tends to look that way.’
No great props, but no great condemnation either, unlike the theoretical crew.
Andrew
Joy asks: Is that wing chun?
**Yes. It may not be high level WCK (fighting) skill, but it is WCK. And I understand how many may not want to accept that – as they have notions of what they “believe” WCK should “look” like. But, when you put folks into a genuine fighting environment, you eliminate the fantasy.
canglong wrote:
That might be true but there are many ways to develop skill.
**It depends – skill at what? There is no “generic” skill. If a person wants to develop good fighting skills, that comes from developing good fighting habits. And like I said, there is only one way a person can get those.
If that’s Wing Chun then the good news is that anyone with about a week of training can do Wing Chun… Very accessible system, no? :rolleyes:
There has to be a progression. The system starts off assuming that the student has no skills, no experience, nothing at all, like a child.
You have to build up attributes, tools and theory and then gradually bring on the ‘reality’ that you seem espouse as ‘the path’ this ‘reality’, however represents the next level of growth, involving testing and refinement; and as with any refinement there has to be something there to refine in the first place and that is what the progression is all about.
The system has always advocated getting combat experience when the system attributes are in place and ready to be tuned in combat training - this is part of the system. Another unofficial part of the system has been in the testing of one’s kung fu outside the kwoon and with those who practice other styles; something that was very true for may of Ip Man’s students.
In the end it is up to the individual student how far they want to take their kung fu in the direction of combat, be it in challenge matches, the Ring, the street or keeping it in the kwoon. Everyone has their own path, not all students should or will want to fight in challenge matches, not all students are looking to be the next Bruce Lee and few students will even have the ability to take it to these levels. No one path is more valid than any other path unless one projects their own goals, views, shortcomings, strengths and beliefs onto everyone else which is really quite silly, since every student is unique and different.
Accurate, excellent, and quotable.
Regards,
- kj
Yes, good post YungChun. But the problem is people here think differently. For example I have stated what I think of my skills and to what category I should be in, which is one skilled in self defense and in the Art of Wing Chun, as I do not consider myself a “fighter” as I define it, but I get challenged by tons on this forum for what I say and write about. My goals in Wing Chun training have never included being a supreme “fighter”, but only to gain skill in something I enjoy doing. I have a very keen and intense interest in Wing Chun and Wing Chun alone, as well as a passing interest in Martial Arts in general, not Fighting as some define on this forum. But I do believe that when one does attain a high quality skill level in WC they will as a byproduct have good self defense skills. To be a great fighter, first you have to have “Killer Instinct” which is something that is born in you, unless of course someone is trying to kill your family, then we all have it. Then the fighter must like to fight and like to hurt others in the process. After that a true fighter will train like a SOB, to achieve excellence in his favored field of endeavor, enduring pain and sacrifice to gain greater skills. Very few are like this, some think they are, I’m not one of them, as I believe moderation is the key to success and happiness in life…
James
YC wrote:
There has to be a progression. The system starts off assuming that the student has no skills, no experience, nothing at all, like a child.
**That’s true of any martial art.
You have to build up attributes, tools and theory and then gradually bring on the ‘reality’ that you seem espouse as ‘the path’ this ‘reality’, however represents the next level of growth, involving testing and refinement; and as with any refinement there has to be something there to refine in the first place and that is what the progression is all about.
**The flaw in your theory is that’s not how human being develop physical skills. In reality, we learn something, we next drill (repeat it) until we are comfortably able to do it, and then put it to work (as it was intended to be used). For example, you learn to slip in boxing, you drill it until it feels smooth, then you spar with it. The significant attributes, the timing, distance, etc. only come from the sparring. My point is that having learned to slip and being able to do it in drills, is only the preparation stage – and it doesn’t mean one has any skill slipping. That skill only comes from sparring or fighting.
The system has always advocated getting combat experience when the system attributes are in place and ready to be tuned in combat training - this is part of the system. Another unofficial part of the system has been in the testing of one’s kung fu outside the kwoon and with those who practice other styles; something that was very true for may of Ip Man’s students.
**If “the system” has always advocated that, how come so few have done it? I’m not talking about “touching hands” or gor sao, I mean fighting, and with skilled fighters.
In the end it is up to the individual student how far they want to take their kung fu in the direction of combat, be it in challenge matches, the Ring, the street or keeping it in the kwoon.
**This is like saying “it is up to the individual how far they want to take their swimming in the direction of getting in the water.” You can’t swim without getting in the water, and you can’t “do WCK” without fighting just like you can’t “box” without getting in the ring.
Everyone has their own path, not all students should or will want to fight in challenge matches, not all students are looking to be the next Bruce Lee and few students will even have the ability to take it to these levels.
**Not all BJJ students will be Rickson either, but they all get out on the mat and roll. They will never get any good without it, and they’re not “doing BJJ” except in application. Not all persons that take up boxing want to be Golden Gloves champs. But they’ll never be a good boxer, or even a boxer, if they don’t get in the ring and fight.
No one path is more valid than any other path unless one projects their own goals, views, shortcomings, strengths and beliefs onto everyone else which is really quite silly, since every student is unique and different.
**That sounds all warm, embracing, etc. but is a load of crap. If someone wants to learn to swim or to box or to grapple or to do WCK, they simply must do certain things. If they want to learn BJJ’s approach to grappling, they must do certain things. If they want to learn WCK’s approach to fighting, they must do certain things regardless of their individual “path”.
“And like I said, there is only one way a person can get those.”
Terence,
If you were open to more ways of learning it might improve your training.
Canglong,
I’m open to anything that produces results. You said “there are many ways to develop skill” – that sounds great, but where are the results that prove it? There’s only one way to become a good swimmer, and the folks that actually swim know what it is. The landswimmers theorize about “the many ways.”
SWIMMING… :eek:
Depends on what one means by “improve your training”…
Does it mean increase your performance against skilled, resisting opponents? (That’s what I’m interested in, and I’m reasonably sure that it is Terence’s primary goal as well.) -If yes, how are we to learn whether or not the methods you suggest are actually helping us move closer to our goal?
As far as I know, there is only one way to test whether or not I am “improving”, and that is to see whether my stuff is working when a tough, uncooperative opponent is putting real pressure on me.
If I used a less stressful test, I might just be fooling myself.
Fighters are generally; flexible, open, and pragmatic people, and most wouldn’t reject training ideas other than their own out of simple stubborness, because they are truly interested in WHAT WORKS…If a fighter DOES reject an idea or method, it is likely because there is little or no evidence of it’s effectiveness.
Has anyone already made a joke about Terence being from Missouri, and the state motto there being; “Show me.” ??? 
-Lawrence
I have a legitimate question. I’ve noticed that many people complain that MA clips where there are resisting opponents don’t like they think a MA should look like. I’m wondering if someone knows where I can find a clip of two people sparring or fighting where the techniques are perfect. You know, like in a Jet Li movie. jk 
Maybe if more WC people sparred we would see a “perfect” WC sparring session.
PR
Phil,
While I can’t help you with a clip, I think we need to make the distinction between using WC techniques/concepts etc and displaying something where “techniques are perfect”. It would be nice if they beared some resemblance to the art. If we’re just going to revert to boxing, then let’s just train to be better boxers from square one and stop deluding ourselves.
For things to “look good” in the movies, they need to be bigger and flashier then is practically required. It translates to more impact on the screen, and is meant to be entertaining, not necessarily practical. How many ‘takes’ are you going to get in a real fight?
Even pro boxers aren’t always perfect in form when the pressure is on. That’s why they have corner men I only said that because I remember critising kickboxers by saying they should have done this or that. I later learned not to be so critical after I got into the ring. When “real” blows are coming at you do what you are able to at the moment. My point is that you have to start somewhere if you want to learned to deal with resisting opponents. I give credit where it is due. Maybe through constant contact training the guys in the clip will be worthy of the approval of some forum members. At least it’s a start in the right direction.
PR
I absolutely agree. But even bad boxing looks like boxing. Like you say, being critical is much easier than being correct. Perfection is an idealistic goal. Practically we may have to settle for something less. Never the less, reverting to flailing is not a goal worth aspiring to.
My point is that you have to star somewhere if you want to learned to deal with resisting opponents. I give credit where it is due. Maybe through constant contact training the guys in the clip will be worthy of the approval of some forum members. At least it’s a start in the right direction.
Well, it is a start, but maybe not in the right direction. Yes, you need to start somewhere…at the beginning. Sparring before it’s time is counter-productive, IMO. Of course, I expect that others have a much different Point of View.
Phil,
You made a great point – the theoreticians have an idea of what they believe WCK should “look” like based on the forms and chi sao (they believe their physical expression will look like it does in those things). But that is a mistaken idea – WCK when applied does not “look” like it does in chi sao or the forms. It’s not that “we are less than perfect when the pressure is on”. Rather, the true nature of WCK isn’t expressed in the forms or chi sao. In other words, the theoretican/nonfighters have never even really seen WCK because WCK is in the application (in fighting), not the forms or chi sao. Fighting pretty much looks the same, regardless of style or method or lineage; the only significant factor in what is going on is the range (outfighting, infighting, ground). The demands of range dictate what you must do.
Proof of this is that no one can fight (against anyone skilled) and make it “look” like the theoreticians believe it should look like. No one has ever seen it. Like bigfoot, however, folks go on believing it exists. And when the nonfighters see folks actually fighting with WCK, they invariably say “Oh, they think that’s good WCK?!” and pat the other theoreticans on the back for sharing in their superior “knowledge.” Of course, should we ever be able to get any of them to fight (and they’ll find every excuse not to), they’ll do the exact same things or end up pounded to hell.