Internal=More movement on the inside than the outside
External=More movement on the outside than the inside
Internal=Soft on the outside, hard on the inside
External=Hard on the outside, soft on the inside
Internal=Very relaxed muscles
External=Lightly tense muscles
Fu-Pow
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in external styles, however you move externally is also manifest internally. this is because the slight tension leads qi into the muscles a bit.
much more importantly than that, though, the areas between the the muscles where the main channels (i use this as a generic term that could mean vessels, meridians, or channels) that qi passes through are filled, because the qi is constricted from being in the muscles too strongly. displacement, i guess.
whenever you’re real relaxed, qi moves wherever it wants to (i.e. both deep into the arm and at the surface). when you’re constricting your muscles, it can better run through the larger channels and stuff, because they are located where muscles are not (at least in between them). this is why they say that the jin of shaolin quan is like lightning, while the jin of taijiquan is like water.
so, there is just as much internal movement as external in both “internal” and “external” styles. it’s just where the movement is located and directed.
just my stab at it. 
can you do this?
is this what you feel?
Just wondering. Please excuse.
These are very high-level things to talk of and question.
I think the level of the answer should reflect your experience and understanding.
Other wise it’s pointless to say my teacher said, this book said.
We are talking and helping each other to understand some rather difficult things.
not about being right or wrong.
return to the wheel of life, not ready yet
bamboo leaf
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> whenever you’re real relaxed, qi moves wherever it wants to (i.e. both deep into the arm and at the surface). when you’re constricting your muscles, it can better run through the larger channels and stuff, because they are located where muscles are not (at least in between them). this is why they say that the jin of shaolin quan is like lightning, while the jin of taijiquan is like water.
[/quote]
Hmmm…you are implying a connection between Traditional Chinese Medicine and Martial arts. I tend to think this connection is wishful thinking
at best. There are a lot of books out there that try to make this connection but, again, I think it is wishful thinking. Instead of thinking about Chi as some sort of bioelectric energy, I think of if more as a sensation that is a result of proper movement. For example the feeling of “peng” could be considered a result of proper body alignment and getting rid of localized tension. However, it feels like your body is warm and buoyant and full of “Chi.”
Fu-Pow
I usually try to avoid these threads but I just can’t restrain myself. Sigh, another weakness to resolve.
Fu-Pow, I have to say that you are quite mistaken to think there is no connection between Chinese martial arts and Chinese medicine. Its called physical-culture, and the connection is as close as it is between Bio-medicine and modern sport. Central to Chinese martial arts, especially the “internal” styles, are the concepts of the nature of physical, psychological and emotional existence. These are part of the Chinese world-view and so are unavoidable if you want to go deeply into the arts.
Certainly these things can be ignored if all you desire is pragmatic boxing skills. Even done mechanically the potential of structure, connection and short power will overcome most leaping-about styles. Just look at how prevalent the “don’t philosophize just train” school of thought has become.
There is something else, however, and it cannot be reached with pragmatism alone. When does sensation become awareness and mobilization become movement? What is the real nature of human agression condensed into movement? What is the difference between tactical tricks and natural instinct? Its possible to reach into very high levels of martial skill that are beyond simple physics and are about the integration of conscious awareness in the physical motility of the body tissue. The basis of this understanding is in Chinese medicine.
In Chinese medicine Qi is not bio-electric energy, wrong paradigm. Qi is the interaction of some aspect of Yin and some aspect of Yang. It is a typical layman’s mistake (common to many Taijiquan teachers, even/especially Chinese ones) to miss the point that Qi can only be discussed within the context of what it is the interaction between. What is the interaction of your physical limbs and your capacity for proprioception? With positive alignment and relaxed tissue the awareness potential is vastly increased, and the sensation is heightened = you feel the Qi.
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
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i tend to agree with kevin on the issue of the connection between traditional chinese medicine and gongfu. just look at the sup ying kuen or the tid sin kuen of hung gar. very advanced and sophisticated, showing clear connections between traditional chinese medicine and gongfu (the sounds that resonate and stimulate the internal organs to energize them comes to mind). monks were known as they are in the west as having medical knowledge. wong feihung, the most influential orchestrator of modern hung gar, was a doctor of tcm, and showed it quite clearly in his sup ying kuen and his love of the tid sin kuen.
yes, bamboo leaf, this is what i feel. not just empty theorizing. this is what i’ve mostly been working on lately. just observations, i guess. about the high-level things, these are pretty low-level compared to talking about things like golden bell cover (something i probably couldn’t even begin to do) or even something like fajin, which everyone seems to talk about, but i haven’t the slightest clue about. i guess i just need more practice. anyways, the tension has been making the central channels more full, and so maybe the energy will transfer outward soon. who knows. everything comes through time, i guess.
Well I guess my opinion stems from the fact that I think TCM is kind of B.S. and can be explained biophysically. Traditional Chinese Medicine was sophisticated for the time of its conception. But it is based on a kind of pseudo-science. Some of its practices may stand up to the rigors of modern science. But I think alot of it is hocus-pocus and its benefits can be explained as placebo effect.
Having said that. I do practice Taiji/Soft Chi Gung and have had some exposure to the hard Chi Gung breathing excercises of Hung Gar. In both cases I felt unexplainable sensations in my body.
Is that Chi? Well, I don’t know if it was or not. But my teacher told me to do this certain excercise and it produced a certain sensation. Now, we can try to explain this as Chi and explain via TCM theory. Or we can try to explain these from the Western anatomical and scientific perspective. I don’t really think it matters much. But on one hand we “Chi” on the other hand we just have physically explainable sensations.
So you might say the Taiji practice produces Chi that flows down this Channel and blah da blah da blah. And I might say that the sensation is a result of muscle relaxation and the gentle pushing and pulling of the tendons.
Fu-Pow
“TCM is kind of B.S. and can be explained biophysically.”
It can’t though. Consider acupuncture, for example. There have been several attempts to explain it reductively to western biochemistry and physiology. I believe these attempts have been fruitfull, as they’ve increased our understanding of the discipline. However, they’ve as of yet not been entirely successfull.
“But it is based on a kind of pseudo-science.”
Lots of things in this world arise from something other than the western empirical tradition, yet nonetheless hold validity.
“alot of it is hocus-pocus and its benefits can be explained as placebo effect.”
Science itself has proven you wrong. Unless you’ve got some argument suggesting animal models are just as susceptible to the placebo effect as human models.
“I felt unexplainable sensations in my body. Is that Chi?”
No.
“on the other hand we just have physically explainable sensations.”
I think you’re confused about western science. Western science is not a field which encompases all statements that any given individual finds not to be mystical. (As being suggested here: ‘I’m not using chi to explain it, therefore it’s western science.’) In the contrary, to be considered technically part of the western scientific domain a number of very specific qualifications must be met.
Braden
In another thread you stated that acupuncture can be used on animals. Could you please refer me to peer reviewed journal articles (and I mean peer reviewed by epidemiologists, not acupuncturists) that prove this to be true. Are we talking about one article, 2 articles , 10. Is there a significant body of evidence supporting this? Just curious, I’m not saying there isn’t. I feel at a distinct disadvantage if you possess the article and I don’t.
Secondly, I’m not stating that because something hasn’t been proven by science that it doesn’t exist. That’s ludicrous. But people use the terms like meridians, Chi, channels very loosely. Yet no two people can even agree what Chi is. All we have is some mystical old books and some studies conducted by some very biased people. Namely, acupuncturists. They would have a great deal to lose if it was found that Chi was a punch of B.S.
Gotta go, but back soon.
Fu-Pow
Acupuncture has become an accepted practice in the western medical community. This implies quite a bit concerned what testing has been done. And indeed, there is a relatively large literature body on the topic, by a variety of professionals and researchers.
I feel a little silly doing medline and literature searches for people, as I’m not more able to do them than anyone else, particularly on as accesible a topic as this; but I’ll make a point of jotting down some references next time I’m in the library.
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i saw acupuncture on a cat once. pretty funny-looking. the cat seemed happy enough, though. usually cats are always afraid of everything.
chinese have had many, many successful tests to find out what qi is. qigong masters were asked to transmit qi into different objects. every test has been positive. it is a combination of many different types of bioelectromagnetic energy, some of which can not be identified. other tests proved that qigong masters could change the molecular arrangement of objects. very interesting results.
remember that while western medicine was still using leeches and blood-letting 300 years ago, the chinese had an extremely advanced medical knowledge. thousands of years ago, chinese doctors discovered the circulatory system and distinguished between light and dark blood. europeans didn’t find out about it until the 1600’s. traditional chinese medicine has always been medical, and not alchemical. daoists practiced alchemy, but they were seperate.
p.s. as for the funny feelings, it could be qi, but we’d have to know what the sensations are first. usually signs are typically feelings of heat, coolness, water, electricity, or especially tingling. that isn’t to say that if you get those sensations that it is qi, though.
Western medicine still uses leeches and blood letting.
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shivers at western medicine :eek:
man, if qi turns out to be fake, then i’ve spent my whole summer standing around for nothing!
understanding perspective
I’ve also stayed out of this thread because it always ends in a you gotta be shown but Fu Pow has possibly shed some light for me.
He said “I think TCM is kind of B.S. and can be explained biophysically.”
With this attitude, all styles will be different. Why? Becuase it takes the western root cause perspective. If the root of how you get somewhere defines where you are, then they will be different. The “root cause” of what so-called “External” and “Internal” styles produce are different. Dissecting these things will only highlight the differences.
Chinese culture in general takes a more holistic approach. The details of how the ends are reached is less important (not insignificant). So we know that the fire element affects the heart. Exactly how? There are differing theories and none of them adhere to the exacting methods of western science yet we know from empirical data it definitely does. Also, does it matter that Hung Gar and Hsing-I (just to name two styles I know) express fire differently on a physical level? No. The concept is the same.
On the otherhand, there are many TCM theories that western science has yet to find a model for. I don’t believe it’s just a matter of time. Even Einstein concluded in his later years that the Universe could not be modeled.
Back to Internal vs. External. Maybe you don’t see the similarity because you are looking at the methods and only at the beginning stages. You can’t fathom how the two can meet in the mature stages. In itself, that’s ok. Trying to mix the two paths too early will defeat the purpose. The problem lies when you think you have reached high level before you have.
Conversely, by embracing the fact that they do meet, then looking at how the methods get you there and how it doesn’t will improve your overall kung fu or at least guide you in the right direction.
Fu Pow, You dismiss the placebo effect as if its not at the heart of healing. A narrow prejudice that completely ignores the fact that minds and bodies are not actually seperated. A shorthand that has been useful for some deep biological understanding, but one that is rapidly losing its central place in bio-medicine.
I’m not going to do your research for you, opening your mind is not a responsibility I care to take on. Suffice to say that there are thousands of articles on veterenary acupuncture, how are your Chinese literacy skills? I believe that the International Veterenary Acupuncture Society has a website (www.ivas.org?).
To dismiss Chinese medicine because of some folk misundersatndings is like dismissing science because most people believe that the moon is larger closer to the horizon. Clinical science is weak in the west because it is so young (pharmaceutical medicine didn’t begin until the Flexner Report of 1910 and the subsequent melding of business and medical education), therefore experimental science rules. However, if your clinical investigation takes place over 2500 years you can eliminate most errors of conception through experience.
More importantly, if you try to understand internal martial arts only through the bio-medical paradigm you will inevitably make errors in conception. Some things are translatable from one worldview through another worldview but ultimatly precision will be lost at some point and the actual context of the information will be gone. How much are you willing to limit your ability to go to high level? Dong Haichuan, Yang Luchan, Ji Longfeng, and so on, all followed the Chinese model of physical existence, yet they were not hampered by being “unscientific.”
“The heart of the study of boxing is to have natural instinct resemble the dragon” Wang Xiangzai
4000 years- thats one helluva placebo effect!!