I’m glad we’re on the same wavelength Kumkuat.
Good point about “pushing off the ground” and “being the ground.” Pushing implies muscular effort, whereas being implies a connection but one that is “un-muscular” in nature.
Fu-Pow
Well, i learned Sun lineage tai chi, hsing yi, and bagua before hung gar. I only practice the tai chi now, but i do have experience with the other two.
I also have a good amount of experience with Chen style (both Lau Jia and Xin Jia) because that was my tai chi teachers mother system.
Of course on a tactile, crust level the arts are gonna look different. When i examine anything i do, i focus on the energies involved with the faht. I find a lot of similarities between faht played in hsing yi (and subsequently sun tai chi) and hung gar actually. The ging is what i’m looking at primarily.
If you look at some of the examples in Chen (which i think you do Fu Pow), they are very much a kin to some moves found in Hung Gar, and also performed with the same energy. I believe this is due in part to Chen having Shaolin roots. Moves such as Hu Hsin Choi (chen) (guarding heart punch) and our (hung gar’s) black tiger fist have the exact same energy (and for the most part physical shape). Bian Pao (firecracker) is exactly the same as our gold splitting fist technique (in shape and energy).
Peace 
As for the ground reference, its the same in Hung Gar as well. We always “borrow energy from the ground.” The thousand pound horse stance has nothing to do with weight, it deals with rooting.
A lot of the internal/external stuff just shows a a practitioners depth of understanding. As the practitioner grows, the “internal” becomes more evident. The more you know, the more you can use.
Peace
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> As for stopping in mid move and going back to wu chi, that is only within the context of the form. [/quote]
You don’t get it. Every move IS wu chi!!! There should be no more muscle tension than when you are standing in wuji!!! Seems impossible, but this is one of the major goals of Taiji.
I think that people that say there is no difference either are getting crappy instruction or they don’t study on both ends of the spectrum.
It’s totally ludicrous.
Fu-Pow
No you don’t get it.
How can you expect any one to understand things that they can’t do or have no access to?
To insist that my way or anyone else’s way is the only way seems not very TC like. To much force.
Pointing directly to the way, show us the emptiness you speak of.
yes what you speak of is possible, really relax, don’t use force.
return to the wheel of life, not ready yet
bamboo leaf
Man, there’s some Mo Duk for yah…
Sh*t I should keep my mouth shut.
Just some thoughts from an ignoramus.
Well frankly Fu Pow, that shows you dont understand the first two postures of your form then. You CANT have wu chi in every posture cuz you are “empty” and “full” which is the embodiment of Tai Chi. Analysis of Gung Chi and Yau Chi is the key. Wu Chi would denote absence my friend- void. Wu Chi is the goal of the player, but we start from it as well. Paradox is a funny thing in CMA.
Peace
Philosophically speaking, wuji should be present in taiji, despite the fact that they seem to be mutually exclusive. This is inherent in the nature of a holistic cosmology.
How much your martial practice reflects this, well… I guess you’ve both allready discussed that. 
Kumkuat, it depends on what people term “external”.
Traditional Hsing I is a very powerful striking art that relies a lot on a rooted posture (especially the older Hsing I styles) and strong qi control.
illusionfist (who’s studied the REAL kung fu, based on his concrete definitions of technique) could definitely tell you better than I can, but Hsing I is as strong an art as there is out there (particularly the “5 Elements”, which once constituted the entire Hsing I style). That’s not to say that it isn’t soft either.
Similarly, baguazhang’s higher levels have plenty of muscular energy discharge that emanate from the jing release of twisted hip energy accumulated in the Single and Double palm changes.
As for external arts that are “not relaxed”, it depends on who’s practicing it and what one means.
One can be relaxed AND muscular at the same time. Just look at Chen Xiaowang, who issues jings that require the use of muscular force as well as qi manipulation.
Seng Men?
HuangKaiVun…
How much power do you think could continue to be drawn from such strikes in bagua and xingyi at the hands of an elderly practitioner?
I agree that they require a degree of muscularity, but it’s sort of indirect so far as vectors and whatnot go, isn’t it? Twisting the body around the waist and other axes of the body is a differnt way to use muscle force compared to the striking mechanics of many styles…
Incidentally, what style do you practice? I looked up your profile but I’m unfamiliar with Seng Men (and it didn’t turn up on a web search)
dedalus, A LOT OF POWER.
Ever see Li Zhi Min (80+ year old chairman of Red China’s National Bagua Association)? If that guy hit you, it would HURT.
Bagua utilizes all of that “indirect stuff” that you mentioned. So does Hsing Yi and my native style, “Seng Men” (Monk Fist).
I also believe there is something to be said for the joint stiffening that happens with age. Though old men are obviously not as powerful as they were when they were younger, the fibrosis that takes place in the muscles and joints can generate a DIFFERENT kind of power than that younger guys can produce. David Carradine’s book (actually written by Sifu Kam Yuen) calls these “old man techniques”.
You won’t find anything on my Seng Men style, at least NOT YET (am thinking of putting stuff out down the line).
There have been a few articles written in China on this VERY OLD style, according to my sifu who didn’t write them himself. It is a style known among old-timers for its power and mobility.
So far, my sifu has yet to meet another Seng Men practitioner that wasn’t a direct disciple of HIS sifu.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> One can be relaxed AND muscular at the same time. Just look at Chen Xiaowang, who issues jings that require the use of muscular force as well as qi manipulation.
[/quote]
I think that you might be confused. The tension comes at the end of the movement when you must stop the arm (I’m talking about a punch) . You are essentially putting on the brakes.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>David Carradine’s book (actually written by Sifu Kam Yuen) calls these “old man techniques”.
[/quote]
The fact that you are quoting David Carradine has me concerned. The guy was an ACTOR!!!
Fu-Pow
Illusionfist
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> that shows you dont understand the first two postures of your form then. You CANT have wu chi in every posture cuz you are “empty” and “full” which is the embodiment of Tai Chi. [/quote]
Every posture being Wuji means that every posture should be as easy to hold as Wuji posture. And every point within the movement should be as easy to maintain as Wuji. I’m not making this up, this is straight from the lips of Feng Zhiquiang himself. This was the point that he stressed again and again in the seminar I attended this summer. I think it has to do with structural integrity. If you can’t maintain the structure then you have to resort to external muscle power. Another way to call the structure would be the “frame.”
Fu-Pow
HVK . . . .
You obviously have been out of touch with the bagua community for a while.
>Ever see Li Zhi Min (80+ year old chairman of Red China’s National Bagua Association)? If that guy hit you, it would HURT.<
Li Ziming died in 1993 at about 91 years of age. He was quite stiff, weakened and frail of mind in his last decade, not at all able to hit or fend much for himself. The chances are that any hitting on his behalf would have been handled by Zhao Dayuan, Ma Chuanxu or other senior students.
Fibrosis as a source of power?? That’s a new one, even for the classics of the internal arts.
You guys may be confusing internal power/strength with skill born of heightened sensitivity and tactical wisdom. Internal power as expressed in, say, fa jing is very real but declines after a certain age. Even as robust a master as Feng Zhiqiang says that he’s felt its decline since about age sixty (he’s 76 now). But this can be compensated for with increased sensitivity and awareness, and ability to move/focus all of your internal strength at the optimum point/angle. Being able to read/anticipate your opponent and respond more quickly with more focusing of your power is something one can cultivate even as one ages.
“Every posture being Wuji means that every posture should be as easy to hold as Wuji posture. And every point within the movement should be as easy to maintain as Wuji. “
Reading this I can see that what he said is not what he meant. You misunderstood.
Wuji as I understand it means emptiness or stillness. Tai Chi is produced by the interaction of full and empty, or stillness and action.
Each contains elements of the other, for me TC is about working with this balance.
To achieve a state of Wuji, you have to completely relax all thoughts and tension in the body. Totally empty. Totally relaxed. The idea of TC begins with the intention of movement. The YI (mind) directs this intention the Chi follows (inner energy) and the body moves.
This is very hard to do, and hard to describe you really have to see and feel it. Many people here talk of a slight tension or something like that. This I think is incorrect also but it’s hard to say. The common question of ‘how do I move if I don’t use muscle LI (force). The mind intent is what really moves the CHI and your body will follow. Your hands seem to be floating, actions directed totally by the YI.
Again very, very hard to really do. Many don’t believe it so they never achieve the real thing.
Not believing, and following the correct way is why I think it takes awhile to get it, but once understood and felt it’s very apparent
If I may make a suggestion. Just work with the opening movement. Work with it until you can really make your hands raise with out using force LI. Once you can do this then you can work with the rest of the form.
I am sorry about my earlier post.
return to the wheel of life, not ready yet
bamboo leaf
Bamboo_leaf
Apology accepted.
I’m not really arguing with you. I’m just trying to put things in a physcial context.
Philosophically speaking, Wuji contains Taiji. So if you think about physically the frame could be considered Wuji and all the internal stuff going on inside, opening and closing, could be considered Taiji.
Just a thought. I’m kind of thinking out loud here as I try to figure some things out.
Thanks everyone for the input. Even if you don’t agree with me.
Fu-Pow
Carradine may be an actor, but his sifu Kam Yuen had a tremendous input on the book and actually intended to write the book himself before putting Carradine’s name on it. Carradine says so himself in his intro.
Besides, Carradine is a legitimate martial artist in my book. If you practice kung fu, take lessons, and enjoy the training, you’re a legitimate martial artist 100% and nobody can take that away from you.
The 2nd part of Carradine’s book is great stuff. Anybody who chooses not to read it just because Carradine is an actor is not worthy of that mind-improving material anyhow.
I saw some video footage of Li Zhi Min when he was in his 80s, which is why I mentioned 80+.
Sure he couldn’t move the way he once could, but he had OBVIOUS power and definitely knew exactly what he was doing.
There are many more ways of issuing power than you’ve been taught, Fu-Pow.
The power generation you described above is typical of YOUR style, but there are many other external styles (e.g. Baji with its rolling continous linking attacks) that don’t stop the jing at the end of the strike.
What illusionfist and I are basically saying is that there are techniques that you haven’t been exposed to yet.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR> What illusionfist and I are basically saying is that there are techniques that you haven’t been exposed to yet.
[/quote]
Well…La ti da.
Fu-Pow
taking seminar w jin bo
not sure how to spell his name but hes the head guy in the yin fu style bagua sence the dr. retired.
anyway he was saying anyone who trys to tell you to be completely soft has no clue what hes talking about and should not be listed to (weather this is true or not I’m not sure I’m unclear on tai chi training methods). This sounded strange at first then he explained that in china everyone and his brother does tai chi but not real tai chi. they want to push hands with him and when he finds and moves their center they fall and get up saying that he is using to much force.
He said it is not softness alone because you would not be standing if you were the softest you could be. infact he said it’s the combining of hard and soft that make a art worth your while.
I just want to note that we worked on forms or changes and postures they are very hard to hold not easy to relax into. that is sort of an example of combining of internal and external, hard and soft: you are externaly hard and internaly soft. although externaly hard is not always muscle tention; in the dragon system most of the strength comes from the tendons being used.
you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage
Internal:External != Soft:Hard