weight lifting & wing chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I’m probably going to get slammed for this, but IMO weight lifting is beneficial to any martial artists including wing chun. Consider that between the ages of 30 and 60 the average person (who doesn’t lift) will lose approximately half their muscle mass. (this is also a general health issue). Contrary to what some people think, muscles are used in wing chun movements. It’s physically impossible for bones and tendons to move without the use of muscles. Proper weight training simply allows those muscles to perform with maximum efficiency.

In my experience, weightlifting doesn’t hinder the ability to relax. Relaxation is mostly mental. Can wing chun be effective without weight lifting? Yes (obviously). Will weight lifting develop wing chun power? No. But a trim and fit body will improve overall efficiency in movement and help prevent injuries.

WSL stated in an interview with Qi magazine that Yip Man was “a lot more powerful” in his fifties than in his seventies. Now you could argue that this was due to cancer, but a big part of it was probably due to a certain amount of muscle deterioration. Because of the aging process, some deterioration is inevitable but it can be minimized through proper weight training. (and by weight training I also mean body weight exercises).

Any thoughts?

Troy

2

Depends what kind of weight lifting (bodybuilding’s a bad one) and how big of a percentage of your training it consists of. I would think that something like Kettlebells would be a good workout for any martial art.

3

Weightlifting means absolutely nothing for WCK.

However, weightlifting can mean a great deal to some of the people who train WCK, and can benefit some people in general, as can proper nutrition, cardio, and general good health.

And, IMHO, while “what Yip Man” did or didn’t do are cute (but lazy) little debate tactics, Yip Man didn’t (to my knowledge) fly in airplanes or go for a MRI scan. Doesn’t mean anyone has to swim to Europe or leave a major injury for a barber to diagnose. Learn as much as possible about physical training, its demands, and what benefits it, then make an informed, intelligent decision based on your own unique needs.

(And some people might just love doing it, like they love baseball or having children, or watching Sopranos. WCK is part of life, you’re allowed to have other parts).

(Caveat, I don’t lift weights, but don’t burn those who do at the stake).

(Enough brackets already)

(Really)

(I mean it)

4

**** your brave to suggest fitness and conditioning to wing chun people i’m impressed.
wieght lifting will not hurt your wing chun in any way unless you lift wrong and hurt yourself and then can’t train.
you won’t turn int o a body builder or some big monster unless your allready big or taking steroids and even then it would take years of extreme training . ‘’ so kill that myth’’
regaudless if it will help your wing chun who cares as you may never get into a fight but you need to use your body everyday so anything that can improve your body go for it.
if becomeing some kind of wing chun master means you can’t improve your body as u see fit , then screw wing chun
but if you get stronger and faster and can still apply structure ,relaxation,and sensitivity
the guess what you just upped your chances for survival.
you can train sport specific and develop your attributes with the use of wieghts and other devices as well as supplements and get the benifit of a good looking and functional body to boot ,
but that requires hard work and most people would rather find ways to not work hard then just shut up and do it .
as for that other myth ‘’ can’t use your muscle when your 50,60,70,and so on ‘’ i got two things to say

  1. if you work out no matter what the age you will be in better shape then if you don’t
  2. if your still fighting or plan on fighting when your 50,60,70,then your an idiot and need mental attention not martial arts .
    do what makes you feel good screw what everyone says including me.
5

Well there’s more possibilities for detrimental effect other than getting so big that you can’t scratch your nose. Such as increased stiffness. That’s why you should weight train according to a routine that is designed for athletics.

IMO it is useful for any martial art, including Wing Chun. The reason being that Wing Chun often puts that body weight behind a strike. Anytime you can increase your body weight without compromising fluidity and speed, your strikes will be more powerful.

6

Re: weight lifting & wing chun

Originally posted by sleestack
[B]I’m probably going to get slammed for this, but IMO weight lifting is beneficial to any martial artists including wing chun. Consider that between the ages of 30 and 60 the average person (who doesn’t lift) will lose approximately half their muscle mass. (this is also a general health issue). Contrary to what some people think, muscles are used in wing chun movements. It’s physically impossible for bones and tendons to move without the use of muscles. Proper weight training simply allows those muscles to perform with maximum efficiency.

In my experience, weightlifting doesn’t hinder the ability to relax. Relaxation is mostly mental. Can wing chun be effective without weight lifting? Yes (obviously). Will weight lifting develop wing chun power? No. But a trim and fit body will improve overall efficiency in movement and help prevent injuries.

WSL stated in an interview with Qi magazine that Yip Man was “a lot more powerful” in his fifties than in his seventies. Now you could argue that this was due to cancer, but a big part of it was probably due to a certain amount of muscle deterioration. Because of the aging process, some deterioration is inevitable but it can be minimized through proper weight training. (and by weight training I also mean body weight exercises).

Any thoughts?

Troy [/B]

Hi Troy,

I’ve come around to your side on this issue for the reasons you’ve cited. When I was young, I could assume that my body could do whatever was required. As I have progressed to my ancient state, I am often dismayed that in non-Wing Chun matters, my strength is not what it was. Rene was right that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun. It has to do with managing age-related muscle loss and maintaining tone and metabolism.

As far as diminishment in Yip Man’s physique, could it have had something to do with his opium use with its associated loss of appetite?

In addition to resistance training, cardiovascular conditioning becomes more important, not less, as we age. Or, we could just be satisfied with being unable to keep up with the youngsters. For some practitioners, particularly those who teach and put in long hours of Wing Chun, both the benifits of resistance training and cardio might be present in them. My own teacher is 62 years old, 115 pounds, does only Wing Chun, and he’s more powerful than me at 220 pounds in the way it counts in Wing Chun.

Now to get out of this chair and go out to the garage and do some lifting. :smiley: Then tonight, after it cools off, I can go for a run after doing my sets. (Today’s an off-day for practice.) :smiley:

Regards,

7

I think weight training is important.

Having triceps that can generate more power means a faster more powerful punch.
Having a stronger body attached to the arm will provide a more stable base and so again a more powerful punch.

If I compare myself to my peers I have a faster hand speed and more powerful punch than them. I dont believe it’s a coincidence that I am the only one who ever spends any time in a gym.

8

Come over to the dark side of the force. . . join me. . . join the Party. . . for I am your fath. . .

Weights rock. Kettlebells rock harder.

The Bear sucks unless you’re a serious masochist. Luckily, I’m a serious masochist.

DL 315x5 for 6 sets, 295x5 for 4 sets, time elapsed approximately 50 minutes (things slowed down a bit for the last 4 sets as my girlfriend had to start seriously cutting her weights).

And tonight is squat night. . .

Andrew

9

Weight training for Wing Chun, absolutely not.

Weight training for general health and well being, therapy, or just because you love it and can’t quit, great.

Walking the walk not just talking the talk, I NEVER work weights for Wing Chun. However, I have been working with a physical therapist & personal trainer, who helped design a program for my own unique health and wellness needs, which includes resistance training.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
10

Hey Kathy,

separating the health and well-being of a practioner from the art they practice is splitting hairs. If you’re in better shape, injured less often, rehab quicker, have better cardiovascular conditioning, develop stronger bones and connective tissue- it should make your Wing Chun better.

FWIW,

Andrew

P.S. And of course, some things seem to actually specifically help Wing Chun structure and mechanics.

11

''Andrew

P.S. And of course, some things seem to actually specifically help Wing Chun structure and mechanics.‘’

i’m living in the dark side right along with you but lets list a few things that translat right over for other people

  1. squats/deadlifts = explosive power off the ground
  2. clean and jerk =same
  3. lat pulls = lop sau from hell
    core training ‘’ resitience to build the waist’’ = helps everything
    theres alot more but i’ll let the rest add on
12

Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Hey Kathy,

separating the health and well-being of a practioner from the art they practice is splitting hairs. [/B]

Indeed. I openly confess to being a bonafide hair splitter, LOL.


If you’re in better shape, injured less often, rehab quicker, have better cardiovascular conditioning, develop stronger bones and connective tissue- it should make your Wing Chun better.

I cannot argue or disagree with that. The only caveat is that, IME, those who induldge tend to have more trouble with Wing Chun than those who train Wing Chun only. At least in the way I and mine practice Wing Chun.

I’m convinced that there needs to be some sort of best balance of training for the individual, as there must be in all things. Not only in light of Wing Chun, but in the individual’s broader life context.

[B]

FWIW,
[/B]

I value your opinions, even where we may dicker on the odd occasion.

[B]
Andrew

P.S. And of course, some things seem to actually specifically help Wing Chun structure and mechanics. [/B]

I’ll have to defer on this one; especially with your background and my lack of, I would be remiss to debate. All I can offer is that IME thus far, both for myself and in observing others, that the most fruitful training for Wing Chun has been more training in Wing Chun.

Our conclusions and practices may lead us to seemingly opposing stances, but I think philosophically our differences are but a razor’s edge (or that darn nit I can’t stop picking). As I think you know, I value well reasoned conclusions over simply agreeable ones. :wink:

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
13

Hi Kathy,

weights have their perils- certain lifting schemes can tighten you up, others will do next to nothing for you. When you talk about people you train with lifting, the question then must come- how do they lift?

IMO, good anatomic understanding of the nature of structure and understanding of weight-training can much more rapidly fix some structural problems than years of trying to train into condition.

When it comes to training and time spent- how much time do you have to spend? If you only have six hours a week, do Wing Chun. If you regularily log 20+, cutting back on some training time and doing 5-7 hrs of strength and conditioning a week is probably a better use of your time.

Ernie,

deadlifts- the freakin’ king of lifts. The Tzar. The posterior chain and great ab stabilization comes from this lift, I love it dearly, and think it’s the best thing out there for Wing Chun. The muscle mechanics of the punch and step are near identical to the deadlift.

k-bell or dumbell swings/snatches (and presumably pure Oly snatches, though I don’t do those)- teach you to use that chain developed above exposively with good muscular endurance, and unilaterally (out to one hand).

jerks- punching straight up, and you better keep your shoulder down if you want your skull intact. Arm extended, shoulder down and back is good Wing Chun lesson. Jerks seem to be the closest to punching of any lift, in terms of feel.

squats- core stabilization, and hip flexibility if you go for the brown stain on the floor. I’m on a front squat kick now, trying to learn to live low. These serve my kicks and chi gherk very well.

dumbell rows- wonderful drill for developing the shoulder girdle and correct left-right imbalances

single leg deadlifts with weight in hand across from foot on ground- pure love for balance work

windmills and bent presses- amazing for developing flexible arm/body connection.

I’ll stop before I hyperventilate.

Ernie- where are you Oly lifting? Gold’s in Venice is the only place around I know of which has a platform.

Later,

Andrew

14

Kathy,
[that the most fruitful training for Wing Chun has been more training in Wing Chun.]

there is skill training and there is conditioning , one can excel with out the other but both can be symbiotic, as they both relate to the same source ‘’ the human body and mind ‘’.
when you train skill, your trying to refine your sensitivity, balance ,relaxation ,timing and so on . this is more mind and body unification, gaining experience and confidence , programming the auto pilot per say.
but this requires moving the human body from point ‘‘a’’ to point ‘‘b’’
in direct relation to something else that is moving .
when you feel fit and your endurance is good , when you know you can go for 30 min. in a fight even though it may only be 30 sec. you are more relaxed and confident your more patient and aware . you won’t blindly rush into some thing because you feel desperate and you have to get it done immediately because you know in your heart you will run out of gas.
IME the apparent down side is trying to chi sau when I’m sore as hell from lifting or running . it throws off my relation time a bit and my feel is a little of . but I have grown to enjoy that feeling as it simulates what happens in a fight kind of sorta, when you get in a fight probably won’t happen when you want to fight . meaning you wont be warmed up and stretched out and in a training state of mind , so you will be fighting your own body and mind . not to mention adrenaline dump, fear and shock . all these things effect your skills . in the fights I’ve been in I tend to feel like things are happening in slow motion and my body initially feels sluggish ‘’ kinda sorta like when I’m fatigued by weights ‘’ . see were I’m going with this . training is all about simulating and having experiences .
if you are creative you can find experience were you least expect it .
but I understand we each have our own way.

15

Andrew
I train at bodies in motion in Pasadena, got all the fun stuff there plus full boxer gear ''heavy bags ,speed bags ,double end bags , upper cut bags , even water filled and a full size ring to boot for that occasional sparring session. the whole nine spinning palates you name it . but odd that you would mention gold’s as I’m on the hunt for good hammer strength equipment as for the last 2 years I haven’t had a steady work out partner and it shows .
I was looking into the gold’s in Pasadena 2 miles from my house. any way enough personal stuff . what do you use for speed and explosiveness , I’m starting to run up hill sprints and going back to plyo’s

16

Originally posted by AndrewS

weights have their perils- certain lifting schemes can tighten you up, others will do next to nothing for you. When you talk about people you train with lifting, the question then must come- how do they lift?

Which brings up the third necessary exercise for us, stretching. Warming up before and stretching after a weight training session is mucho importante.

Also, an excellent alternative cardio and resistance exercise program is swimming.

Regards,

17

while upper body strength may not be as important, lower body is quite important. the legs generate a lot of power in WC. stronger legs = more power.

i lift 4 times a week and the only thing my wing chun brothers/sifu noticed was that im strong for my size. everyone says i have soft hands. relaxation is all in the mind.

my routine is really simple, halfway between power to the people and the bear.

day 1: 5x5 bench, 5x5 rows, 5x5 calf extensions
day 2: 5x5 squats, 5x5 military press, 5x5 lat pull down
5 minute rest inbetween. every time i lift i increase the weights 5 lbs until i cant do my 5 sets of 5. if i cant, i take a day or two off and go down 10 lbs and start again.

as my legs get stronger, my WC gets better. i can handle the single legged stance much better, which really improves my chi gerk. stronger legs have also improved my endurance (i can train more = better WC), footwork and chi sau.

18

Weight lifting owns you.

IronFist

19

Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Hi Kathy,

weights have their perils- certain lifting schemes can tighten you up, others will do next to nothing for you. When you talk about people you train with lifting, the question then must come- how do they lift?
[/B]

Other than “like most people seem to,” I haven’t got much of a clue. There have been some lifters in our school who have been surprisingly supple and relaxed, though that has been the exception and not the rule. Even they though (the supple and relaxed ones I’ve known), experienced a lot of trouble giving up use of strength in their Wing Chun work. Also, their overall Wing Chun development and skills did not come any easier for them than for the rest of us.

OTOH, those I know who have attained exceptional skill, did not undertake any explicit weight training at all, other than what is inherent within the Wing Chun repertoire (e.g., stance work, knives, pole). I have no way of assessing the degree to which implicit weight training may have been present in their day-to-day lives. I realize others MMV altogether.

WRT certain efficiencies in alternative training vs. Wing Chun training as you mentioned earlier, I hear what you’re saying, and remain justifiably open minded. My reservation is largely based on my own observations (I do confess some small pride in trying to pay attention, LOL), combined with those of many of my seniors and peers. I fully realize that our combined observations are only a sample data set, and until everyone is sampled and counted with all training permutations considered, cannot be exhaustive. If I were going on logic alone, I would likely have conceded to your conclusion already.


IMO, good anatomic understanding of the nature of structure and understanding of weight-training can much more rapidly fix some structural problems than years of trying to train into condition.

That’s exactly why I sought to have my own remedial and preventive program designed. I do indeed have “structural problems” that need fixing, with or without Wing Chun. :frowning:

While Wing Chun may “help” in some ways, I in no way believe it was designed to fix my inherent problems for me. I do think there is some presumption that we come to Wing Chun in reasonably decent health and working order. Again, and on this point, touché to your argument. When that isn’t the case, we can either choose to a) work with what we have, or b) aim to fix and improve things that are malfunctioning or suboptimal - and I think we may be in sufficient agreement on this last point “b.”


When it comes to training and time spent- how much time do you have to spend? If you only have six hours a week, do Wing Chun. If you regularily log 20+, cutting back on some training time and doing 5-7 hrs of strength and conditioning a week is probably a better use of your time.

Again, I’ll defer agreement or disagreement, though I concede that the proposition is valid.

IME, there always seems to be a catch-22 as regards weight training and Wing Chun.

Regards,

  • kj
20

Ernie,

I think only the Gold’s in Venice has a platform. For speed and explosiveness? Kettlebells and squats. I think Oly lifts are the way to go for explosiveness- one of my seniors exclusively trains for Oly lifting and has had great results for the last two years.

I don’t really understand plyos well, despite having read a few books and tried them. I need to find a good coach to go through them with me.

I’m a serious k-bell fiend- they’re the best fight cardio I’ve ever done.

Travis,

the Party rules! Why the 5x5 thing with long rest intervals? What are you trying to do? The short rest interval gives you hypertrophy, the long, strength. It sounds like you’re doing strength stuff, but why not pull some singles or doubles in there?

Kathy,

what about folks who weren’t lifting when they learned to be soft and have good structure, who then started to lift? Thoughts on them?

‘Like most people’ would be ‘like a moron with no plan’- think of it as randomly performed half-taught purposeless qi gong, and you’ll understand what most weightlifting people do is. No science, no understanding, little gain.

Andrew