andrew
i right about to get back into a heavy lifting cycle , starting next week , maybe i’ll pick your brain for some solo training idea’s .i’ve been off all my supplements for the last six months so i haven’t had that spark but summers coming and vanity will rule.
plyo’s build you 0 to 100 speed mostly for footwotk . you can apply the same mental trigger to punching and intercepting . relax and explode then relax again.
more later got to go
Anyone planning to do olympic lifting etc make sure you have someone experienced to teach and show you how to do the techniques correctly.I heard that Bruce Lee damaged his lower back severely from incorrect lifting.
I have seen a device that you can buy which attaches onto your back and has some cables so you can practise your punches against resistance.Has anyone used this before ?is it any good?
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Kathy,
what about folks who weren’t lifting when they learned to be soft and have good structure, who then started to lift? Thoughts on them?[/B]
Except for those who undertook some type of weight routine for health reasons, I haven’t seen this yet. Those who did undertake for health reasons did generally seem to improve whatever health issue it was they were working on, which at least in the respect or being able to practice properly was helpful to their Wing Chun; the general health benefit. However, no noticeable improvement in the overall quality of their Wing Chun execution from what I could tell, or from any reports about it.
I don’t have enough data to speak more generally about whether or not it increased the challenge in some way; I’ve “heard” it does increase the challenge, but I don’t know to what degree such reports are reliable. I’ve also “heard” that it has less of an impact to start weights later, and this I can swallow a bit more easily on the basis that the body has learned at least to some degree about Wing Chun relaxedness before introducing the perturbation. Again, there could be exceptions outside the scope of my sample set, so I can offer observations, but cannot be conclusive about it.
As an aside, I don’t think I have met anyone who has learned to be “soft enough” yet (read, fully functional yet undetectable and unusable); only people who are closer to the ideal than others. It’s a continuing work in progess. Not surprisingly, Ken is the closest I know of in Wing Chun, and dang if he doesn’t seem to get even smoother and more undetectable as time goes on.
OTOH, I have known some serious lifters who gave it up. Notably, one of Ken’s more advanced students recently, if reluctantly, stopped lifting in favor of Wing Chun, as he conceded that it seemed to be impeding his progress. He had been seriously dedicated to weight training for years, and while I don’t know what his lifting routine was, he is distinctly not the sort to approach much of anything in half-smashed, unintelligent or uneducated manner. It was apparently a very difficult decision for him. I’ve no doubt he’s still a fitness nut, but sans the weight routine. I’ll be interested to hear his findings after another year or two.
‘Like most people’ would be ‘like a moron with no plan’- think of it as randomly performed half-taught purposeless qi gong, and you’ll understand what most weightlifting people do is. No science, no understanding, little gain.
I hear you there with total clarity. As little as I know about weight training (and I promise, it isn’t much), I have probably researched more than some who regularly pump it up, which is sad to say.
I would love to actually see first hand success stories where weight training was a specific help to Wing Chun or even that it generally had no impact. There is little that would please me more than a symbiotic relationship between modern weight training or other methods and Wing Chun progress. Trust me, if there is a shortcut or enhancement method, I would love to take it!
I do think there must be some balance point between the two where weight training won’t especially hurt or hinder one’s Wing Chun, though I don’t know how easy it is to find that perfect juncture, or to what degree it varies by individual. I sure hope to find it though, LOL.
So while I have not seen the synergy between weights and Wing Chun yet, I retain a cautiously open mind that someday I might. Maybe you will even be the guy who resolves the seeming disconnect. Based on your writing, background, and predilection for research and experimentation, I’ve grown a high degree of respect for your views on such things and others over the years, and you’ve a better than average shot at being the one to convince me yet.
I’m keeping my eyes peeled for tangible evidence that solidly refutes our more traditional training advice. Meanwhile, and to the relief of the lifting proponents, I’ll excuse myself from the thread, LOL.
Regards,
- kj
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Travis,
the Party rules! Why the 5x5 thing with long rest intervals? What are you trying to do? The short rest interval gives you hypertrophy, the long, strength. It sounds like you’re doing strength stuff, but why not pull some singles or doubles in there?
[/B]
definately going for strength, not hypertrophy. however i’ve found that the 5 sets of 5 helps me build a little extra mass (which i definately could use 
)
i’m not killing myself by doing the bear, so lifting doesnt impede my WC practice, the strength gains are great, and i like the extra muscle im putting on (for purely asthetic reasons).
the routine is giving me really strength good gains… so i don’t see too much reason to screw with it
weight training
If you’re going to invest time in weight training for the supposed benefit of your Wing Chun, why not use the time more wisely by training the WC weapons? That would be far more beneficial to you. However, if you don’t know the weapons, training with weights using motions similar to those done in WC, would also be helpful.
Another alternative is the Bo Flex (sp.?).
But my bottom line is, unless you want to become The Rock, use the time for Wing Chun. That is, if Wing Chun is #1.
Ernie,
as we’re only a few miles apart we should catch up face to face some time and trade martial and conditioning info. I’m lifting with my girlfriend right now, so I’m not looking for a lifting partner, but if I start with Oly lifts and we get a platform down in WeHo, you’d be welcome there- better drive than Venice.
Faze,
Bruce was doing ‘good mornings’ Bruce trained like an idiot. His regimens fail to include this thing called ‘rest’ which is necessary for improvements. Not taking anything away from the guy- he’s the first (besides Leo Fong) to really address conditioning, but he succeeded in spite of many of his methods.
Oly lifters (snatch, c&j) seem to have the lowest injury rates of any type of athlete- a very surprising piece of info).
Kathy,
fwiw- two schemes have had the least day to day impact on my WT performance- kettlebell work 5-6 days a week, varying intensity, doing hard cardio one day, circuts the next, technical another day, and Pavel’s 5x2 5 minute rest scheme with deadlifts + training lifts for squats one day, squats with training lifts for deadlifts the next, kettlebells the next, then rest. These basically did nothing but good for my performance. Stuff like the hypertrophy work I’m doing now is definitely short term sacrifice for long-term gain.
Isn’t Eric Burnett from your line? He’d started weights later in his training and was very happy with his results, I believe.
When it comes to Ken- here’s my take, based on training with my sifu, and a bunch of other people- no one gets good exactly the same way. If I try to condition and train like my sifu, to emulate the training regimen of an elite athlete, I’m gonna get hurt. I’ve seen guys try to train like him- they get injured, fast, 'cos his recovery times, fiber type, neurology, etc. support him doing the stuff which makes him better. I need to find the ways to make myself better, and those are my ways.
Ken (and others, Leung Ting among them) decry the rough, hard muscular ways of their youth- to what extent was that a necessary conditioning background for their present skill?
Thanks for the kudos, but the best argument for weights is experiential. Learn to use them well, and feel the difference. I got softer when I started to lift, as my balance and kinetic linkages improved.
Travis,
hey, why argue with a winning game plan? You’re getting sore off that with 5 minutes rest intervals- are you getting protein within an hour post-workout?
ETW-
I don’t have the Wing Chun weapons, but I do train with long staves, middle-length stuff, and sticks, as well as some over-weighted weaponry (3 3/4" diameter, 5 ft long pieces of rebar duct-taped together to emulate a great sword, parking meter, or stop sign). Useful stuff. Weights seem to provide a more versitile conditioning base, though- they carry over to my floorwork better.
Later,
Andrew
good for you Andrew,
The bottom line is the only thing that can make your Wing Chun better is Wing Chun.
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Kathy,
Isn’t Eric Burnett from your line? He’d started weights later in his training and was very happy with his results, I believe.
[/B]
Eric Neeck maybe?
I can only imagine the cringes on my training bro’s faces if I were to start lifting weights. 
Hey Eric B,
could be, sorry about taking your name in vane. Did he train with Jerry McKinley then under Ken? Last time there was weightlifting flamefest on the WCML, one Eric was chiming in. My brain may be fried, though.
ETW,
only to the extent which all motion may be perceived and executed through the lens of Wing Chun. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly disagree.
Later,
Andrew
Originally posted by AndrewS
ETW, only to the extent which all motion may be perceived and executed through the lens of Wing Chun. Otherwise, I wholeheartedly disagree.
All WC motions should be perceived and executed through the lens of Wing Chun.
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Travis,
hey, why argue with a winning game plan? You’re getting sore off that with 5 minutes rest intervals- are you getting protein within an hour post-workout?
[/B]
definately getting the protein my problem was less that i was getting sore and more that my muscles were really fatigued. i dont get the fatigue from 5x5, while 10x5 got my muscles pretty tired and it affected my WC.
i also practice the knives/pole in addition to lifting. the lifting has only helped them. squats have really improved my ability to hold the low horse stance. for the knives i’ve found the lifting doesn’t get in the way and they’re an insane forearm workout
You have to try a bunch of different stuff to know what works for you. Also, time considerations play into anyone’s decision.
I can see how, instead of doing my power pushup etc. today I could have had the energy to do 1000 punches. My priorities don’t lie with Wing Chun right now.
To all: what if it doesn’t help your Wing Chun, but it does help your fighting?
Another question, for those that do lift weights: Do you think it is wise to do Wing chun training (punches etc.) after you lift weights, or split these up into seperate days?
i do them on the same days - i try to train my WC every day.
however, i don’t do them on the same time. i usually give my body a few hours to recouperate after lifting before doing any WC and i usually give my body a few hours after wing chun before i start lifting
andrew
lets do it bro , email me i’ll give you my number and we can hang out there’s a few wsl brothers in venice i will be training with soon so your welcome as well . if not we can just get together no problem. you seem like good people and i’m always down to learn .
Hi Andrew.
Originally posted by AndrewS
Isn’t Eric Burnett from your line? He’d started weights later in his training and was very happy with his results, I believe.
I think you are referring to Eric Neeck as others mentioned. Yes, he was very happy with his results. As I understand it, the impetus for his training regimine was first and foremost to improve his overall health and well-being. That said, there are numerous possible grounds for his overwhelming satisfaction, among them:
- Improvement in his general wellness and fitness, including increased energy, and easier carriage and mobility, both in and out of Wing Chun context (highly desireable and likely, IMHO)
- Improvement in the functional and mechanical aspects of his body (e.g., orthopaedic, neuromuscular, and other physiological functions), above and beyond what he experienced in his Wing Chun work and yet directly translating to that work (possibly)
- Maintenance or increase in his ability to utilize his existing or newly acquired strength and mass to success against smaller, weaker, and less skilled partners without realizing he is doing so (as a large man to begin with, this is likely at least in degrees, IMHO)
- An increase in his ability to relinquish use of strength in the large muscle groups in favor of the smaller and less committed joint alignments and adjustments we prefer, and which are crucial for our particular way and goals for training (knowing how hard earned this non-instinctive attribute is, unlikely that his strength training would help in this regard, IMHO)
Regardless of outcome, I do know Eric was very pleased with the results, and I couldn’t be happier for him. His satisfaction, increase in wellness and sense of well-being, and his enjoyment of the work are more than sufficient justification for it, and regardless of positive, neutral, or negative impacts on Wing Chun work.
It has been so long since I have heard from or about Eric, that I’m not even certain if he is still actively training in Wing Chun or not. Considering how much he was enjoying his strength and fitness routine, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is currently favoring it over his Wing Chun practice.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
Ernie,
check your pm. I’d be up for a run out to Venice. One of my bros is out there (and he’s been flaking on training for a year now- needs his cage rattled).
Travis,
what rest interval were you doing for 10x5? Was that a bear thing? I’m on a month of hypertrophy before going back to some mixed PTP and k-bells to cut fat, then on to a serious strength cycle.
Fajing,
I try separate things by a few hours, but that doesn’t always happen.
Kathy,
1). I think is pretty iron-clad. Weights are excellent fitness tools, and will make you feel better.
2). Is part of what I’m arguing for.
3). I doubt, if you’re being honest with yourself. I can feel when I’m ‘muscling’, using my mass, etc. Part of developing skill is internal as well as external ‘feeling’, and I haven’t found that I’ve lost any of that as I’ve lifted. Once you know the right stuff to use, you can tell when you’re using it.
4). The small stuff which holds these alignments is gonna get stronger, too, and strength in those postural groups is part of ‘structure’. If they are better able to hold alignment, it should (in theory) be easier to let other things go (i.e. if the shoulder girdle is strong and one has good control of it, you’ll be able to relax your neck and deltoids much more).
It would be a pity if Eric stopped training, he’s someone I wanted to meet for a while.
Later,
Andrew
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Kathy,
1). I think is pretty iron-clad. Weights are excellent fitness tools, and will make you feel better.[/B]
That one is the gimme.
2). Is part of what I’m arguing for.
I presumed as much, and this also serves as a main impetus for my benefit-of-doubt. Too bad there aren’t a lot of public or private funds available to thorough research on comparative studies (i.e., modern sports fitness vs. traditional martial arts training methods). I am a huge respecter of modern science and medicine. At the same time, I’m under no illusion that every angle, discovery, or insight has yet been explored or gleaned, and feel there is still a lot of work to be done.
3). I doubt, if you’re being honest with yourself. I can feel when I’m ‘muscling’, using my mass, etc. Part of developing skill is internal as well as external ‘feeling’, and I haven’t found that I’ve lost any of that as I’ve lifted. Once you know the right stuff to use, you can tell when you’re using it.
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time I deluded myself, LOL. You may be entirely correct; I completely confess there are times when either my perceptions are wrong, my biases get in the way, or both. There are, however, some actual bits of evidence leading to my general, albeit inconclusive inclination on this. Among the pieces I find compelling enough to give me pause:
a) Reports from my seniors and betters in observance that I and others were indeed being “out-muscled” by otherwise skillful Wing Chun people on many occasions (lucky for them in the moment, but not a sufficiently controlled experiment). This, rather than just my perceiving it so.
b) Observing the billions of incessant corrections I and so many others continue to receive to stop using so much muscular force, combined with the positive results realized as we respectively (even if temporarily) approach the aim.
c) That even I resort to use of far too much force and strength, despite being one of the least likely candidates to do so. This was painfully underscored to me in recent weeks, even though I remain convinced that I do a better job of avoiding muscling than many, if not most. I also remain convinced that I simply can’t get away with relying on that as easily as some others (like the big guys, who don’t encounter proportionally as many bigger, stronger, more skillful people than themselves). I truly did not realize just how much I still tend to “fight back” rather than “allow” the mechanics to work for me, and thought I was farther beyond that than I am. I am hard pressed to fully ignore my own personal experience, just as I am sure you or others are hard pressed to ignore yours.
d) That in observing the work and corrections others endure, many, if not most have more difficulty in abandoning reliance on excessive force even than I do.
None of these are specific to Eric, BTW, as I did not have the luxury to work with him after he buffed up. He may well be the very exception we are looking for.
4). The small stuff which holds these alignments is gonna get stronger, too, and strength in those postural groups is part of ‘structure’. If they are better able to hold alignment, it should (in theory) be easier to let other things go (i.e. if the shoulder girdle is strong and one has good control of it, you’ll be able to relax your neck and deltoids much more).
While I still hold some caveats around it, I can fully follow your argument, and remain hopeful that such benefits may at least cancel out any potential negative impact of such programs on the MA work of interest to me. Because I personally am in such need of orthopaedic tuneups, this serves as somewhat of a counter balance to my own personal concerns about strength training.
Given enough time, my own inclinations and perspective may change too, based on my own non-WC remedial strength program among other factors. Hopefully this concession that I am still adding to my data set may redeem me a little from seeming too imbalanced. I realize I must seem incorrigible, but perhaps not fully beyond redemption yet, LOL.
It would be a pity if Eric stopped training, he’s someone I wanted to meet for a while.
Agreed, and hopefully that is not the case. I only wonder about it, since he has been so absent for so long now.
Regards,
- kj
Originally posted by AndrewS
[B]Travis,
what rest interval were you doing for 10x5? Was that a bear thing? I’m on a month of hypertrophy before going back to some mixed PTP and k-bells to cut fat, then on to a serious strength cycle.
[/B]
yeah it was the bear, i took around a 4-5 minute rest between sets