All excited about going to a tournament that had Chinese Martial Arts divisions and hardly had enough CMA to fill the divisions. Why is it that when a good venue comes around, there isn’t many people there to represent the CMA. No problem getting Karate, Tae Kwon Do and others but we can’t seem to find enough people to make a good showing.
I’m from Minnesota and have been real excited about CMA since I started. All we have here is “open” tournaments, which really means Karate or TKD. I hear about all the really good Kung Fu schools in Florida and at the coasts but when I make my way to a tournament there, nobody shows up?
Did I just hit the wrong tournament or is there only certain ones people will go to?
Around here, any time there is a chance to show off CMA in any tournament, I would be there. Not to show off the limited skills I have but to try and give CMA a foothold on mainstream martial arts.
I have done my share of losing to judges that have never judged Kung Fu in their life but I would gladly do it again knowing it is great advertisment for what I believe is the greatest martial art.
Are there more people interseted in talking about their kung fu rather than showing their kung fu?
i cant speak for all schools but my school doesn’t go to open tourneys, we only go to kung fu tourneys. a few bigger ones we go to are nick scrimas and the taji legacy in texas. there are more but those two are ones that pop into my head right now
tourneys
I am new at the whole kung fu tournament thing because like I said, up here open tournaments are all we have. Why is it then in the area you live in, you are only subject to CMA only tournaments?
I just heard this weekend about the Skrima tournament and the Taiji tournament and I would love to get to them sometime, but I just got back from the Disney one and thought it was great. They had Northern, Southern, and even a seperate division for Wushu. What was it about that tournament that CMA schools won’t attend?
I was looking forward to not only seeing but competing against the Wai Lum School and only one person entered, but they were able to put on a opening ceremony for the night show. I guess I thought that in areas where there was more CMA schools, you would seem them trying to represent CMA more when they had the chance.
By the way what school are you from?
If you mean the Disney Martial Arts festival, I totally know what you mean. Gadge and I went there on Saturday, and after 2 hours it was just a total bust. We saw one girl in a green silk uniform doing what looked like a traditional Northern form (no goofy acrobatics or lack of power like in the Wushu forms we saw.) but no Praying Mantis, CLF, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, etc. like I was hoping for. And definitely no MyJhong.
I wish more traditional peeps would’ve competed (hey, don’t look at me! I’m exempt from my own admonition- I suck.) Maybe we just came on a day/time when there were none? Maybe we missed it all. At any rate, the only cool thing was that Arnis Demo with the sticks and Bullwhips. After all the Karate and TKD, I was relieved to watch Wushu (that just says how dull Karate got.) After the Wushu, I was relieved to see Karate Katas (that just says how dull/frustrating Wushu got.) Then we got tired of that, and just watched the TKD kiddies knock each other down, or the Karate tykes scream out EVERY SINGLE FRIGGIN’ MOVE IN THEIR KATA. Or the crazy hakama-wearing poser-girl doing flippy-dip XMA moves with an aluminum Katana (and screaming out each slash.) I won’t disrespect Japanese/Okinawan MA by calling that crap “Kiai” it was just idiotic screaming. Ugh. Just Ugh.
usually the promoters/coordinators of the kung fu tournaments such as tai chi legacy that you mentioned belong to some type of kung fu federation. if the federation for example has 100 schools as members the sponser of the tourney knows he will have x number of schools participating. that’s why tai chi legacy/chinn woo is successful and has participants from all over the country and around the world.
My Hsing-i school never attended such events, only full contact. The reason we never went to a “Kungfu Tournament”? No full contact.
Open tournaments suck. Competitng in one is an exercise in futility. Being judged by some karrody guy or screaming TKD 1 year black belt is not worth the money spent on entrance fees because they have no idea what they are looking at.
Samurai Jack, there’s full contact CMA tournaments. Try looking up USCKF and checking out the Lei Tai competition. How about sanshou?
Sanshou wasn’t widely popular in the U.S. in the early 90’s. The North American Tang Shou Tao had a full contact Hsing-i/Pa kua tournament once a year, which we were a part of. We didn’t call it San Shou though. If things in the popular ‘tournament circut’ have changed, that’s great. It was needed.
i am from lee koon hung choy lay fut school in ft. lauderdale, fl
“usually the promoters/coordinators of the kung fu tournaments such as tai chi legacy that you mentioned belong to some type of kung fu federation.”
While this is true…Taiji Legacy is put on by Jimmy Wong…and he is in the Chin Woo… Then you have USAWKF, USCKF, etc… The competitors typically could care less about the organization or being members. The judges may or may not be members of any organization. For example, very few of the judges at Taiji Legacy are actual Chin Woo people.
“that’s why tai chi legacy/chinn woo is successful and has participants from all over the country and around the world.”
For Taiji Legacy, the reason it is successful is :
It is one of the last surviving BIG CMA only events in the country.
Jimmy Wong strives to make it better each year.
He plans if and has the dates for the next one already set up when you walk into the current one.
The big CMA events besides Taiji Legacy pretty much fell by the wayside when the USAWKF split up happened. The folks that had a beef with those in charge of the WKF now were the ones who did a lot of outreach and also had the large share of experience with putting on large tournaments. They went on to other things.
For example, the events that Jeff Bolt did in the 80’s and 90’s set the standard for the others. (Like - being the first to move an event out of a gym or community center and into a NICE hotel. HAving the judges be people that ALL did CMA…etc…
Then along with the USAWKF issues, a number of other folks smelled what they thought was money. They started putting on events trying to do large ones…and did not know what it took - money wise, people wise, how to deal with folks…and then you have a couple of years where you have 3 or 4 BIG events happening within 6 to 8 weeks of each other. People simply can’t fly all over the country like that…so folks began to choose which ones to do…and the day of the big event started to end.
It would be nice to have maybe 2 of those type a year…and have people actually talk and get together again.
No Unitity
One of and certainly not the only problem that faces the KF Tournaments Circuit is that CMA as a whole has too many internal politics. So instead of supporting the “community” they decide to not support the person. There are far too many political issues involved in CMA that hinder the community as a whole.
Then there is the whole, I don’t want to show my stuff to the world party who are concerned with sharing their ‘secrets’ with the public. WHATEVER…Everyone needs to step up to the plate and get out there and just represent.
The last tournament I went to was the Battle at the Boardwalk in February and it was just a pathetic turnout for CMA. Yet TKD had no shortage of participants. My cousin is a TKD guy who was top in the country when he was a kid competing - we travelled all over the country with him and the one thing I noticed is that although there are small feuds within all these worlds - none allow for the separation of the community as does CMA. If Jhoon Rhee and John Chung have a disagreement - they are still at each other’s tournaments. Rodriguez, Conroy and all these non-CMA people run tournaments open/closed whatever and they all come to support each other and the community.
Don’t we think that if CMA stepped up then perhaps we would have more CMA judges at open tournaments and not have the scales so heavily weighted against us. I competed and placed at Mike Conroy’s Open tourney years ago as a KF person. I saw a lot of KF guys win at that tourney so it’s not always biased. Although, when you hit the bigger ones yeah you run into it heavily. Again, with more exposure you wouldn’t have as big a problem. But when there are big tournaments with CMA divisions and no CMA’ers show up it’s never going to change. As a whole we can’t just pick and choose who we are going to support and who we are not…you have to just support and keep the politics on the side and do what is needed for the community at large.
As the next generation it’s our responsibility to do so if we want to see a change. If you suck…so what at least you represented and were there. It’s better than not being there and complaining abou it right?
As for CMA judges stepping up…not likely.
The problem :
Even if you have intentions of helping out and judging, for many of these open events, there are not invites for CMA judges. There may be invites for so-called big name folks, but in the judging area, they are typically not that helpful. They show up to tout a book, do a seminar, sit at the big table…but ask many of those type to work a ring…oh no…
So, you work countless events in CMA…and you don’t get an invite…so you say, I’ll go and help anyway…
You get there and have to pay to get in…and then work besides. (Been there, done that…showed up at an open event because I had a junior class mate competing…paid to get in…then got drafted to work an event…-never again..I may do things for free, but I REFUSE to pay to work)
[QUOTE=GLW;717177]As for CMA judges stepping up…not likely.
The problem :
Even if you have intentions of helping out and judging, for many of these open events, there are not invites for CMA judges. There may be invites for so-called big name folks, but in the judging area, they are typically not that helpful. They show up to tout a book, do a seminar, sit at the big table…but ask many of those type to work a ring…oh no…
So, you work countless events in CMA…and you don’t get an invite…so you say, I’ll go and help anyway…
You get there and have to pay to get in…and then work besides. (Been there, done that…showed up at an open event because I had a junior class mate competing…paid to get in…then got drafted to work an event…-never again..I may do things for free, but I REFUSE to pay to work)[/QUOTE]
Honestly though, if you were not invited to the event then why would you expect not to pay. IMHO if you’re there and seeing as you care about what you do if someone asked you to judge - why not? Is it really so much work? You’re going to watch them anyway? This is the problem CMA faces - the “I” factor. The judges won’t step up becaue their offended in some way as in this instance with being required to pay for the event, or having paid for the event and being asked to judge when they fell short.
A) You can always say no. B) In doing so, you open the door for CMA’ers in doing so in the future. How many people I can tell you that were at other events and were asked to judge - they do so graciously and they are there supporting their teams that they brought - they still paid for the event as well. But they do it happily. That’s why they are able to do what CMA has not so far in hosting multiple, large and successful events.
Come together people.
"Honestly though, if you were not invited to the event then why would you expect not to pay. "
NO CMA people were invited. This is quite typical. It is typically a Karate type of event and they wouldn’t know who is reputable in CMA or not… But more recently, I was actually asked to travel to another city, be a chief judge and work for the event…and the organizer NEVER sent a simple invitation. It was second hand. This is a matter of manners and a matter of making the CMA people feel welcome.
"IMHO if you’re there and seeing as you care about what you do if someone asked you to judge - why not? Is it really so much work? You’re going to watch them anyway? "
Have you judged…? It IS work if you do it right. If I paid to get in and then you ask me to work, manners would seem to dictate that you refund my spectator fee. Once I agree to judge, I am there until the organizer says I can go. This means that I am suspending MY plans for his and in return, there should be some courtesy.
It is bad enough when you are put judging advanced divisions and the other judges know nothing of CMA but to pay for this “honor” Sorry… Nope. In fact, I missed out on many of the things I went in to watch because I agreed to help out and judge. so, it cost me time, money, and WAS an imposition.
So, an offer of my spectator fee should have been forthcoming… and of course, I probably would have declined it. It is about manners.
"This is the problem CMA faces - the “I” factor. The judges won’t step up becaue their offended in some way as in this instance with being required to pay for the event, or having paid for the event and being asked to judge when they fell short. "
Sounds like you have limited or no experience judging.
When you have done a few large national/international events, let me know. Try showing up at the beginning of the event…working until the end of the first day…limited bathroom breaks, the food brought in for judges is all gone because those with the “I” complex hit it while you were WORKING the rings…and then you have other things to deal with.
Do this for two days - your weekend - and then go back to work Monday with no voice and tired and h@ll.
sorry, the I factor does not really apply here.
Ask folks like Ty Nunez, Tim Niiler, and others about judging…and the work involved. It is NOT too much to expect a little courtesy for it. In return, it is also not too much for the competitor to expect the judge to realize that the judge is in essence doing the work FOR the competitor.
complete dissapointment
After reading all these replys, I can’t believe the politics involved in CMA. I guess being in a state where there just isn’t much CMA, you don’t have the politics. Maybee this is a blessing in disquise up here. That is just too bad that we can’t even support our own style at any tournament as a common group. If it is going to be like this, Wushu will take over traditional CMA in no time.
I could care less about having the correct judges as long as I can represent old school Kung Fu well.
Well, hope to see some of you die hards at some non-sanctioned tournaments sometime. Good Luck.
NO CMA people were invited. This is quite typical. It is typically a Karate type of event and they wouldn’t know who is reputable in CMA or not… But more recently, I was actually asked to travel to another city, be a chief judge and work for the event…and the organizer NEVER sent a simple invitation. It was second hand. This is a matter of manners and a matter of making the CMA people feel welcome.
As such you also have the ability to decline if you felt you were not addressed and/or asked properly.
Have you judged…? It IS work if you do it right. If I paid to get in and then you ask me to work, manners would seem to dictate that you refund my spectator fee. Once I agree to judge, I am there until the organizer says I can go. This means that I am suspending MY plans for his and in return, there should be some courtesy. It is bad enough when you are put judging advanced divisions and the other judges know nothing of CMA but to pay for this “honor” Sorry… Nope. In fact, I missed out on many of the things I went in to watch because I agreed to help out and judge. so, it cost me time, money, and WAS an imposition.
Because I have not done something myself doesn not mean I do not understand
or am unable to relate to the difficulty involved. MA family here - my cousins famiy and his students have hosted successful tournaments for many years.
Again back to your ability to decline - it would not be the first time. My point is in the interest of expanding CMA’s involvement in these open tourneys that you take the hit for the team and move on. In this way you are eventually able to initiate that change. If this is something which you would not agree with then why do it - just say no.
So, an offer of my spectator fee should have been forthcoming… and of course, I probably would have declined it. It is about manners.
The problem is we have “expectations” of what should happen - what we feel should be done in such instances. When you were invited to the tourney to judge - did they charge you addmission? I would highly doubt it. There are many people who are called upon to judge and many just enjoy doing it.
"This is the problem CMA faces - the “I” factor. The judges won’t step up becaue their offended in some way as in this instance with being required to pay for the event, or having paid for the event and being asked to judge when they fell short. "
Sounds like you have limited or no experience judging. When you have done a few large national/international events, let me know. Try showing up at the beginning of the event…working until the end of the first day…limited bathroom breaks, the food brought in for judges is all gone because those with the “I” complex hit it while you were WORKING the rings…and then you have other things to deal with.
Do this for two days - your weekend - and then go back to work Monday with no voice and tired and h@ll.
Again I don’t have to have done it myself to have an understanding of what the experience is. Have you ever run a tourney? I know many people that have - so my understanding of what’s involved is pretty in depth. My intent was not to attack or offend you but simply to demonstrate the shortcomings with CMA’ers and why tournamets we try to host are unsuccessful for the most part.
sorry, the I factor does not really apply here.
With all due respect - but everything you have stated demonstrates the contrary. The fact remains that CMA’ers do not stick together and we are easily offended at other tourneys when we are not treated as we feel we should be. But in order to provoke change we have to take some hits, get in the door, and from the inside begin to change the way not only we are treated but how we are viewed in the open tournament forum. Unfortunately, with our inability to even iron out things within our own system how do we expect to operate successfully with others.
Ask folks like Ty Nunez, Tim Niiler, and others about judging…and the work involved. It is NOT too much to expect a little courtesy for it. In return, it is also not too much for the competitor to expect the judge to realize that the judge is in essence doing the work FOR the competitor.
As I said - I’ve been around the circuit since I was 14. I know what is involved and what it takes to not only run but is necessary to judge. I’ve seen judges like Bill Wallace called upon from spectating and happily accept - for their art - I’ve also seen others say that “I would love to but really can’t today.” and respectfully decline. Again, with all due respect as there is no intent on attacking your actions here - if one does not want to do it then he/she should not. Otherwise, if they do accept you are aware of what is involved and should have expected that much from. As for the last part about the competitor realizing that the judge is doing the work for him/her - as a competitor - I would not want you to judge me.
The competitors put in a great deal of dedication and time into attempting to perfect their performances and for anyone to assume credit for their actions is most certainly an “I” factor and if and/or when I host a tourney that will be the factor that I hope to avoid.
"This is the problem CMA faces - the “I” factor. The judges won’t step up becaue their offended in some way as in this instance with being required to pay for the event, or having paid for the event and being asked to judge when they fell short. "
No, the issue is “Do I take my weekend, cancel a couple of classes, and go to a competition to ‘represent CMA’ or not” When the hassle factor is much greater than the benefit either to ones’ self or to the CMA, you tend to decline. In open events, the benefit is quite low for CMA….which is WHY we (notice the word WE there) began the CMA only events.
“Again I don’t have to have done it myself to have an understanding of what the experience is. Have you ever run a tourney? I know many people that have - so my understanding of what’s involved is pretty in depth. My intent was not to attack or offend you but simply to demonstrate the shortcomings with CMA’ers and why tournamets we try to host are unsuccessful for the most part. “
The FIRST CMA ONLY event was paid for and put on in Houston Texas back in the late 1980’s. It was an event hosted by Jeff Bolt. I WAS the technical coordinator for that event. I did just about everything in that and subsequent events except pay the bills (and I gave some money there too…) Since then, I have worked in every capacity at competitions EXCEPT host (don’t want to mortgage the farm to do this), Arbitrator, and Judge in Chief (my teacher was always the Judge in Chief at just about every big event for the last 17 years)
My intent here is to show WHY many CMA people choose to either avoid ALL competitions or only go to CMA events.
“Unfortunately, with our inability to even iron out things within our own system how do we expect to operate successfully with others.”
Sorry, but you assume a lot. The I factor is not an issue here. I have dropped over $1000 per event to travel to, work at, and return from a number of national and international events for zero pay. This includes things like working for 4 or 5 days straight with less than 4 hours of sleep per day.
I have also been involved in WRITING the rules that are in use, working for rules or codes of conduct for judges, coaches/teacher, competitors, etc.. and organizing. I would daresay that were I to stop and do nothing more until I die, I would still have done more than 99% of all those out there…. Yet I am currently involved in work to try to do exactly what you are talking about…get something organized the is actually accountable to the CMA people – members and such.
Now, having said that, if you want to be part of a solution, stay tuned. Opportunities will be coming over the next 18 to 24 months.
"As I said - I’ve been around the circuit since I was 14. I know what is involved and what it takes to not only run but is necessary to judge. I’ve seen judges like Bill Wallace called upon from spectating and happily accept - for their art - I’ve also seen others say that “I would love to but really can’t today.” and respectfully decline. "
And that is part of the point. The Bill Wallace’s – big names…. Are virtually NEVER responsible for the hard work that goes on. The folks I mentioned are some of the unsung heroes. Those that judge but maintain a low profile. They come in, do their job, then go home with zero fanfare.
The circuit – sounds like a Karate thing. Those of us involved in the CMA aspect looked around at what was being done back in 1985. We saw events where CMA was in “Soft Style” (Does ANYONE REALLY consider Hung Gar SOFT?). ALL CMAs were in one division. Taijiquan, Northern, Southern, etc…. Then they had ONE weapon category – not long or short….and you could only do one. And so on.
So, we said “What if…we did an event where the judges DID CMA. They were qualified…. And if the divisions were according to CMA styles so you could have Taijiquan folks compete against Taijiquan. Northern against northern, and so on.
First attempts were - 1986 if memory serves. Been there… and still am.
First, this was not a personal attack on your contributions. From a completely objective position - you state that you have been involved since the begining - fantastic - and it’s a great credit to you. However, and again OBJECTIVELY - you stated 1986 was the first attempt - 20 YEARS LATER - CMA is no more organized than it was then.
CMA only tournaments loose more money than they gain and even CMA divisions such as were created at NJ’s Battle of the Boardwalk are EXTREMELY WEAK. So obviously, and not a reflection on you personally - but there needs to be some change. I don’t think that this is something that is really able to be disputed.
You make note that “the circuit” is more “Karate” - the circuit is neutral and bares no allegiance to any style. If successful it could just as easily represent CMA. Unfortnately, after 20 years - we are not able to do duplicate their efforts.
My intent was to demonstrate that there is no unified front with regard to CMA. There are very few that support each others efforts to the betterment of CMA. If this offends then there really isn’t much I can do about that but it is the truth. There are no “organizations” that have proven successful because within each branch there are far too many that want to be the chief.
We get angry or resent the non-CMA “circuits” but perhaps we should take some notes with regard to their structure and relationships. If we were able to demonstrate the unity that they do then we would undoubtedly be a force to be reckoned with.
Ultimately it is my belief that we share similar goals. I have my methods of reaching them which are already in motion so although I would certainly be willing to partaking in anything that proves to be of benefit to the CMA community. It’s my philosophy to be proactive and initiate movement versus just staying tuned. As such myself and others are ALREADY part of the solution.
missing the point
I think the original point of the discussion has been missed. I wasn’t asking why there isn’t more CMA only events, I was just wondering why there is such a horrible representation of Kung Fu in major open tournaments with Kung Fu divisions. I realize that there are some really good CMA only events but if you wanted to get CMA styles more mainstream and understood wouldn’t you advertise that at a open tournament? I have noticed we never do very well, the judging is horrible, the “open” tournament or “traditional” rules never apply to us, and the mat sizes stink, but every tournament I have been to when I am the only CMAer has been exceptionally good for CMA. What a great place to show off what CMA is really about. I can’t wait to go to a CMA exclusive tourney but seeing how people are so interested in what we can do and watching our competition from Karate and TKD makes me want to make CMA better. Kind of gives you a reason to train.
I give big props to people who sacrifice and put on a good CMA tournament, but would it kill you to show up for one day and represent CMA to people who know nothing about it?
Drive down the street and you see 10 TKD schools for every Karate school. You see 10 karate Schools for every “Kung Fu” school.
Its pretty safe to assume that at an open tournament that there would be the same representation?
TKD and Karate(s) are pretty well codified, regimented and organised. Not so “Kung Fu” the term I use to rever to every norther, southern, Hakka and Shaolin style under the sun. Every TKD guy that belongs to the “association” is going to know what makes his stuff good or poor in the eyes of the ‘association’. Hell, show me two Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Pak Mei or CLF schools that are carbon copies of the other?
Sure politics play a role, but don’t put too much into it, Its no conspiracy, its just the numbers IMHO.
However, I do believe a Cruise missle took out the pentagon, and that the assassins were on the Grassy Knoll, and that Bush is really an Alien.
Cheers!