Good show!
R.O.F.L.O.L!
Good recovery Rene!!!
So please indulge us with your experiences and travels to Southern China since having written this. please share with us the bombshells that contributed to your change in thinking! I think others would demand foot notes! But for me I’ll just take your word for it. (maybe :)) LOL!
Sifu C. Noaks
Re-changing one’s mind.
Being willing to change one’s mind with consideration of things
previously obscure or un-noticed is a sign of maturity and growth
—qualities that serve analysis well. In the pursuit of knowledge there is often a necessary tension between the quest for certainty and a healthy distrust of dogmas and old views- even one’s own.
yuanfen to the rescue! LOL!
Great words yuanfen! however–
yuanfen wrote:Good luck Ed and Ken with the Fong Sifu seminar in the windy city.
I hope that folks with diverse backgrounds can take care of this opportunity to be exposed to very good wing chun instruction.
Sifu Fong does not get involved with lineage issues but is very open and thorough in discussing the art itself.
CN— So being in AZ you must have taken the HFY people up on the frequent invites to experience HFY first hand from SiGung Gee! Do you believe in learning by experience or just PC / ineternet interaction. Is there karma on the web? LOL! you guys are killing me LOL! 
Sifu C. Noaks
PS-- How about that coffee? (check my signature)
Chango,
I’m glad your mind is as open as you wish everyone else’s to be. Also glad it took you only 7 years to get to where I was in '96 (I wasn’t in Southern China till '99). We can only hope this means that by 2011, you will have caught up to where I am today. The journey is the important thing, after all, and I admire as you keep on trying.
BTW- You are not my ‘sifu’.
Once again Chango paints a great picture of his family - Sifu indeed?
Black and Blue,
Chango merely grilled Rene for what Rene himself refers to as “the romance of the legends”. Looks like Rene got his feathers ruffled… It happens.
Funny how you feel compelled to step in now. Where were you when the real attacks were being made??
And btw, I’ll have Chango painted besides me for a KF family portrait anyday. Thank you very much.
As far as Joy is concerned… his bias has become somewhat ‘old hat’ for us. Chango just once again provided us all with an excellent example.
This thread was on it’s way to resting in peace. So much for that…
Alex
duende
Good point, I’d like to know where black and blue was when Sifu Victor Parlati was painting?.
I would say Sifu Noaks hit some sore spots?
Regards
CD
Chango doesn’t ruffle feathers or hit any spots. He’s great in person (had the pleasure of meeting him in Dayton), and a heck of a fighter from what I’ve heard, he is (of his own admission) not the best online communicator in the world, and mostly he contributes to tension and argument (take a look to see how many non-politcal posts he makes–a good indicator of where and how he chooses to spend his time). But you know, that’s fine, not everyone sees eye to eye, and at least he keeps on trying, and for that he deserves credit (even if it often makes things harder for the other VTM/HFY folks).
BTW- Where was Black&Blue before? Where are the VTM/HFY folks when Ken Chung or Augustine Fong or William Cheung or Leung Ting get insulted online? Where are you when I get insulted? Most people tend to stick up for their own, which is fine, but don’t whine about it.
(And I’ve argued and insulted with Joy far worse than I have with any VTM/HFY person and we manage to get along okay now, so there’s always hope. FWIW, I don’t know Black&Blue at all, but he seems like standup person and I value his doing what he sees as right. And I will keep sticking up for VTM/HFY people when I think they’re badly done by as well, so :p)
Rene your scales are showing! LOL!
Hello Alex and CD,
Thank you for the kind words. Maybe the portrait that these guys should worry about is thier own. I think it might be a little late to change this threads name to “a portrait of a serpant” LOL!
let’s look at how Rene’s tongue is forked when discussing the VTM and HFY and it’s members but not when addressing others here in this thread is a fine example!
Rene wrote:Chango doesn’t ruffle feathers or hit any spots. He’s great in person (had the pleasure of meeting him in Dayton), and a heck of a fighter from what I’ve heard, he is (of his own admission) not the best online communicator in the world, and mostly he contributes to tension and argument (take a look to see how many non-politcal posts he makes–a good indicator of where and how he chooses to spend his time).
CN-- Rene your forked tongue is showing. How many times have you and I met face to face? LOL! You obviously haven’t notice my other post from time to time. But of course you always seem to be involved when the VTM or HFY family is being attack. So I can see why you would think that.
On the time issue! Yes I must say you’ve got me there when we look at my web activities against yours. It is very clear where I spend my time. For me it is in the real world training. As for how you spend your time well how is the WCML and all of the internet projects going? I guess you and I both wear a broad band Black sash LOL! But for different reasons of course. I’m a big guy I think your might me Road runner or somthing like that LOL!
Rene wrote:(And I’ve argued and insulted with Joy far worse than I have with any VTM/HFY person and we manage to get along okay now, so there’s always hope. FWIW, I don’t know Black&Blue at all, but he seems like standup person and I value his doing what he sees as right. And I will keep sticking up for VTM/HFY people when I think they’re badly done by as well, so )
CN–Now Rene “insulted” ? ROFLOL! Now why does it not suprize me that you don’t use that forked tongue of yours on these two.LOL! Rene you begin to look like a game show host. Do I need to dig up the archives to prove my point about your anticks? I will spare this forum the trouble. Your history is speaking for it’s self!
CN-- So let’s stay on subject exactly what changed your mind Rene? Footnote or expriences or both? enough about me or the VTM the HFY family. This is what you wrote! so why the change now? please answer the question bottom line!
Sifu Noaks (creme and sugar please)
Originally posted by duende
[B]
This thread was on it’s way to resting in peace. So much for that…
Alex [/B]
—Yep! Chango saw to that now didn’t he! What happened to that polite, friendly and productive discussion I was trying to have with Jeremy and Savi? Where did you guys go? You’ve let Chango change the whole tone of what we had going here.
Keith
KPM
Hello,
I just simply ask the question what Changed Rene’s thinking?
If how I ask this question offended you and others. I sincerly appologize but I think this is a reasonable question.
both questions posed to these chaps are all resonable.
Fact- Rene has had a change of heart some where along the line.
CN question - why and what did it?
Fact- Joy/yuanfen has been invited many times to meet GM Gee in person to exprience HFY in person. He has not showed up once!
CN question- Why haven’t you showed up? Why do you choose to judge from the sidelines when being invited on to the field?
These are logical questions for this discussion. If these questions are viewed as insults or “feather ruffling” I have to say that I don’t think the problem is mine. I would persoanlly like to do with out Yuanfen stepping in and helping Rene dodge the question. I will be the first to take responsibility if I came across harsh. I hope this thread can recover. I’m sorry if I’m comming to the thread late. With my schedual I only get one day to get on the internet.
C. Noaks
KPM
If you truly are interested in having an adult conversation without the hecklers and backseat drivers, it may be well worth your while to sign up on HFY108.COM, I know we have a few members from other familys over there.
Sifu Redmond is one and I noticed someone from Leung Tings family just joined??
Regards
CD
black and blue, have you taken the time to read any of the posts on HFY108?.
I think there you will find there isn’t the war of words you find here?.
Regards
CD
Re-Chango and Co-
No worries. No dogma ran over my karma- anyways.
Wow— a little while ago came a special priority mail from an anonymous but generous person- who I would like to publicly thank.
Enclosed was a copy of the rare out of print book by Gene Tunney
entitled “A Man Must Fight”. I always wanted a copy.
Young folks may not know or remember—Gene Tunney was basically a light heavy but he defeated Jack Dempsey twice- one of them involved the controversial long count. Footwork, timing and the jab…beat the little heavier Dempsey’s vaunted right hand and the left hook.
Bruce Lee apparently had a copy of this book and had it in his library on boxing.(Analysis of boxing played a role in his development). BTW some of you know that MR. R.Clausenitzer
(WSL/WC) and co author of one of the if not the first book in English on wing chun-who is on this list was present when Bruce Lee had a youthful boxing match in Hong Kong.
Muchas gracias (anonymous) friend.
yuanfen, serendipity and kismet- what a treat on Halloween!
While waiting with candy for doorbell ringers tonight, I will be reading the book!
CN question- Why haven’t you showed up? Why do you choose to judge from the sidelines when being invited on to the field?
I have had free tickets to football games that i didn’t use.
Priorities of time and curiosities.
I can judge how well the Arizona Cardinals play without being there.
BTW- use of sifu handle on the forum by a forum partcipant
is not the best of judgements.
I can judge how well the Arizona Cardinals play without being there.
You mean you rather not be there??? Every time I watch baseball on TV I fall asleep. Going to the game is an experience that is priceless. I think your not even watchong it on TV but listening on the radio huh?? You must be out of your mind Dude!!!
Priorities of time and curiosities.
I’m not saying you are giving an excuse but this is a good example of it
I never been to China but I watch documentaries of China all the time. Dude!!! I would rather go to China in person to just to experience it. I heard the people there are very nice and very open minded.
But then again some people rather watch documentaries. Good luck…
Peace out
hot tea & open minds
originally posted by yuanfen
I can judge how well the Arizona Cardinals play without being there.
BTW- use of sifu handle on the forum by a forum partcipant
is not the best of judgements.
Passing judgement in general is not usually advised or practiced by people of open mind or sincere of heart and passing judgemnet on things you have yet to experience or people you have yet to meet is always reguarded as improper etiquette and often times prejudging things unknown is the largest single reason ones own perceptions become misleading and groundless. There is no replacement for first hand experience NONE this is one of the first things we learn as martial artist and should be something we never forget or lose sight of as people. Chaudhuri Sifu, any time you want to experience Hung Fa Yi let us know our kwoon has been visted by and is respected by students and practitioners the world over who understand the true meaning of hou chyun san sau or learning first hand from knowledgable teachers. Again our tea is always hot and our minds are always open and we look forward to your visit.
tony
[[Passing judgement in general is not usually advised or practiced by people of open mind or sincere of heart and passing judgemnet on things you have yet to experience or people you have yet to meet is always reguarded as improper etiquette and often times prejudging things unknown is the largest single reason ones own perceptions become misleading and groundless. There is no replacement for first hand experience NONE this is one of the first things we learn as martial artist and should be something we never forget or lose sight of as people. ]]
if this is how you feel and i have no reason to think other wise , i have a question , i borrowed the mastering kung fu book and read , keeping a open mind , and always looking for new ways to look at things , yet i was disturbeb by the constant underlined reference or implication to hfy being the only real complete system , with out having experienced all other systems first hand how could any one make such bold statements , beyond the star trek type phrases like battle array and time and space dimension type stuff , there wasn’t anything i have not seen to the same degree in almost all other systems of wing chun i have come across , now i’m not saying the information provided wasn’t good it was … it did feel a little scientologyish at times to be honest , but still there was good info and good fighting tactics .
i was really bugged by the implication that if bruce lee had found hfy he would not have needed to go elsewhere that was a bit of a stretch.
no i’m just wondering not trying to be insulting or have any hidden agenda , you guys might be a great bunch of guys and i would assume you are , but the wording you use can be percieved in a negitive or bias light .
my take
originally posted by Ernie
if this is how you feel and i have no reason to think other wise , i have a question , i borrowed the mastering kung fu book and read , keeping a open mind , and always looking for new ways to look at things , yet i was disturbeb by the constant underlined reference or implication to hfy being the only real complete system , with out having experienced all other systems first hand how could any one make such bold statements
Are you suggesting incomplete is a negative conotation, I doubt the authors of the book would agree. Ernie, it has been my experience when people hear, view television or read things and become emotional(“disturbed”) one way or the other it has more to do with the particular individual than the material. If I can give you my take it on your statement I hope it can help. The job of the Ving tsun museum is to research and expereience all other (wing chun) systems first hand and my take on the point they are making is in their travels and studies to date the only complete system they have encountered is Hung Fa Yi. Though for the most accurate account of how many systems the museum has had first hand expereince with we would need to contact them directly. Secondly Hung Fa Yi distinguishes itself from art and self expression by incorporating a science and the wing chun formula which make it complete in that if you adhere to the formula there is nothing to add and nothing to subract from the system. Hung Fa Yi is not subjective to others interpretation as are other martial “arts” which clearly by their own definition make them incomplete and as such each practitioner is free to add or subtract from the art in pursuit of “evolving” the art to its next phase. This is not a positive or negative view of comparing hung fa yi science with other martial arts it is just an accurate way of comparing hfy science with other martial arts. As such any emotional attachment is not inteneded by the writers and is soley the responsibility of the reader in my opinion. Again the only way to expereince this difference and make the comparison yourself is to visit a a hung fa kwoon or seminar if possible. You can also gain further insight into hfy over at hfy108.com. Thanks for the question Ernie always a pleasure responding to sincere questions.
Are you suggesting incomplete is a negative conotation, I doubt the authors of the book would agree.
When making a comparison between two things, one complete, and one incomplete, incomplete is without a doubt a negative connotation, unless we are discussing something negative to begin with. A complete grocery list is better, but you’d rather not be a complete jerk.
I dare suggest that if the authors didn’t agree that complete was better than incomplete, they would not have made the claim to begin with.
I don’t think the HFY family can expect a higher level of acceptance than they are already getting from martial artists that have learned systems that have been publicly taught and put to the test for a long time. Ip Man didn’t get his butt kicked a lot, y’know? What did he need with 1,2,3,5,6? It is all better than not having any training.
Suppose there are two men, and each have a pistol. One man has been shooting his pistol in real life for a while, but the second man shows up and says his pistol is bigger, and was made BEFORE the newer pistol, plus it has better sights.
The first guy is just thinking “a bullet through your body is a bullet through your body, and I’ve been in the world shooting longer than you have.” He doesn’t need the pistol that is strangely both newer and older at the same time. He’s already got a pistol. Do you follow?
What I still don’t understand, is why some people feel slighted by HFY. HFY is a system, with it’s version of history, just like any other system. What is there to argue about? Accept or disregard whatever you wish. Nothing is being forced on anybody.