From 1958:
It says that it’s a Bruce Lee home movie - but who’s the wc guy in the vid? Anybody know?
And the fight, if indicative of a typical wc fight in those days - is very telling.
Not much going on…and the opposition even less so.
WC guy running right into kicks, basically just chain punching. Ouch!
Pulled off a gum sao and punch in the second scene; okay, but the other guy’s response was clueless. Saw it coming from a mile away - and still got caught.
Anybody know of any other wc footage from the 50’s (or 60’s)?
I thought that kid looked a lot like Bruce…
Also, nothing wrong with punching.. Indeed sometimes that may be all you need.. When I first started learning I found the idea of the WCK punch, how it controlled the line and how, through “chain punching” you could maintain that attack fasinating… In fact, many of the folks that I was sparring at the time were blown down by my using those…
So to me, chain punching isn’t just chain punching… It’s punching non-stop, which can certainly be useful… One still must use the right timing and distancing, have power, etc.. In fact, punching may be all you need, and if so, then doing any more than simply hitting or punching would be a waste of time, no?
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;776772]It says that it’s a Bruce Lee home movie - but who’s the wc guy in the vid? Anybody know?
And the fight, if indicative of a typical wc fight in those days - is very telling.
Not much going on…and the opposition even less so.
WC guy running right into kicks, basically just chain punching. Ouch!
Pulled off a gum sao and punch in the second scene; okay, but the other guy’s response was clueless. Saw it coming from a mile away - and still got caught.
Anybody know of any other wc footage from the 50’s (or 60’s)?[/QUOTE]
Funny how easy it is to be a Monday morning quarterback:)
What do you want the guy to do to him, put him on the ground and apply a figure four leg lock, lol. The idea is to hit, not look pretty or to adhere to anyone’s idea of how to fight. He did just that, hitting the guy, applying pressure and making the guy retreat. It was simple, direct and efficient.
As for who it is, it’s not Bruce, but a WSL guy from what I understand. I think he was a newer student as well but I’m not too sure on that one, will have to investigate. I’m pretty positive that Wong was there as well, may have ref’d the fight from what I’ve read. Plus I was under the impression that the opponent was a mantis stylist of some sort, northern or southern.
James
I’ve seen this same fight listed elsewhere on youtube as mantis kung fu, and taking place in 1961. And at first I thought it was Bruce too, but after watching it a number of times I became convinced it wasn’t him.
And like anything else, the newness of something makes it formidable - like the continuous punching on the centerline, whether it’s chain punching or whatever variation thereof.
Like William Cheung likes to say: “If you haven’t seen it before it’s probably going to hit you.”
in 1993, with the advent of the UFC, basically nobody knew how to deal with the Brazilian jiu jitsu guard position/game. Remember Royce’s first 8-10-12 fights?
The same with wing chun. How do you stop the “machine gun approach” to punching? Do you remember when that was the question? But what I was looking at was the ease with which the wc guy was getting kicked, and he even fell down a few times - and with his hands held extremely low.
By todays’s standards you can’t say you’re impressed by this fight - can you?
And something else: go back and spend the entire vid watching the CLF guy. He’s got basically nothing going.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;776834]
By todays’s standards you can’t say you’re impressed by this fight - can you?
[/QUOTE]
IMO… This “fight” could have happened yesterday if you picked the right two teens from a couple of different schools… They’re kids, learning, as much as they are doing… It wouldn’t surprise me if this was how Bruce would have fought at the same level..
There were also some basic elements of WCK there and they were sufficient to allow the WCK kid to dominate… Despite the ‘slip’ … 
No the other guy had nothing esp since his space kept disappearing..
“They’re kids, learning, as much as they are doing… It wouldn’t surprise me if this was how Bruce would have fought at the same level.”
***I’M SURE OF IT.
And William, and Wong, and all the others too. At some point.
Just curious about what other “points” these guys were at back in the old Hong Kong days. Hence my reason for posting the thread and asking the question:
“Anybody know of any other wc footage from the 50’s (or 60’s)”?
Today you see someone recieve a head kick and all they do is cover - its accepted as a ‘block’ and no one mentions it anymore.
Vic - the VT guy looks to be doing the same, the camera angles block your view but if you look closely at the body it “looks” as though hes making tiny responces to the kicks be it a shift of weight or a check if you will…and yes the Gum at one point.
The thing that strikes me, Tong Long or CLF, is the skpping and/or hopping which serves no purpose. That guy really had nothing. He needed so much room to swing his punches and the foward pressure of the VT guy meant he had no space. Even when he raises a leg for a kick (which looks to land) he only pushes himself over off the VT guy.
Most of the fighting back then as told to me by my Sifu, envolved only body shots unless both parties agreed otherwise, where as this seems to have head shots. Perhaps the VT fighter was just showing a habbit from other fights with his low hands, who knows.
The Wing Chun guy is a WSLVT practitioner (now a sifu) - Wu Chan Nam. I’ve seen photos, either pre- or post-fight, and they pose with arms round shoulders so it was a “friendly” match as far as I can work out.
See this link and search for “Wun Chan Nam”.
http://www.wcarchive.com/html/wing-chun-movies.htm
Yup!
From when I first posted this as “Wing Chun vs. Choy Lay Fut” a couple years ago:
Hi, Brad
Again, in the interests of historical accuracy, the stocky Wing Chun guy knocking his Praying Mantis (not CLF…there is another film of a bloodier fight in a sort of basement carpark like structure where the WC guy prevails over his CLF opponent in a less one sided match) opponent around is none other than Wu Chun Nam sifu, still teaching today and a member of the recently formed AVTA (Authentic Ving Tsun Association).
Wu was Wong Shun Leung’s first personal student and the man who sort of interviewed and “vetted” me one week before giving me the OK to begin training under Wong sifu, way back in the winter of 1964!
I may very well have been the first foreigner to see that movie (I had to borrow my father’s 8mm projector for the showing). Unless, my memory is faulty, I remember the bout went on for a bit longer than what the clip shows, and ended with the Mantis guy throwing a snap front kick that Wu blocked with a Gahn Sao so powerful that the Mantis guy was spun around on his supporting leg, allowing Wu to punch his opponent in the back, thus ending the fight.
Regards.
Rolf
http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36719
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;776842]“They’re kids, learning, as much as they are doing… It wouldn’t surprise me if this was how Bruce would have fought at the same level.”
***I’M SURE OF IT.
And William, and Wong, and all the others too. At some point.
[/QUOTE]
Back in the mid 80’s one of my training partners (who, at that the time, was living in Australia and training with Cheung) asked WSL how William Cheung won his fights, if he did anything “different” (e.g., secret footwork). Wong replied that “he did what we all did” and just demonstrated the chain punches and charging steps.
That strategy (charging in with chain punches) worked because the people they were fighting were poor (and poorly trained) fighters. When the WCK people later went and fought the Thai’s, who were good, well-trained fighters, they were easily beaten.
Fighting skill is developed (and maintained) mainly from fighting (sparring), and people improve by fighting with/against better people. The rooftop fights was the “white belt” division of gung fu fighting. Those that went on to fight better opponent’s got better; those who didn’t, stayed the same or got worse (through lack of fighting).
Just curious about what other “points” these guys were at back in the old Hong Kong days. Hence my reason for posting the thread and asking the question:
“Anybody know of any other wc footage from the 50’s (or 60’s)”?
Hawkins has some rooftop footage. I think he put some of it on his DVDs.
Originally Posted by t_niehoff
Back in the mid 80’s one of my training partners (who, at that the time, was living in Australia and training with Cheung) asked WSL how William Cheung won his fights, if he did anything “different” (e.g., secret footwork). Wong replied that “he did what we all did” and just demonstrated the chain punches and charging steps.
That strategy (charging in with chain punches) worked because the people they were fighting were poor (and poorly trained) fighters. When the WCK people later went and fought the Thai’s, who were good, well-trained fighters, they were easily beaten.
Fighting skill is developed (and maintained) mainly from fighting (sparring), and people improve by fighting with/against better people. The rooftop fights was the “white belt” division of gung fu fighting. Those that went on to fight better opponent’s got better; those who didn’t, stayed the same or got worse (through lack of fighting).
not everyone lost to the thai boxers. Not everyone just used chain punching. Ip Man had allot of students and some disciples. Allot of fights were at schools too not just roof tops.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;777268]Back in the mid 80’s one of my training partners (who, at that the time, was living in Australia and training with Cheung) asked WSL how William Cheung won his fights, if he did anything “different” (e.g., secret footwork). Wong replied that “he did what we all did” and just demonstrated the chain punches and charging steps.
That strategy (charging in with chain punches) worked because the people they were fighting were poor (and poorly trained) fighters. When the WCK people later went and fought the Thai’s, who were good, well-trained fighters, they were easily beaten.
Fighting skill is developed (and maintained) mainly from fighting (sparring), and people improve by fighting with/against better people. The rooftop fights was the “white belt” division of gung fu fighting. Those that went on to fight better opponent’s got better; those who didn’t, stayed the same or got worse (through lack of fighting).
Hawkins has some rooftop footage. I think he put some of it on his DVDs.[/QUOTE]
Good points, though why everyone likes to pick on Thai boxers is beyond me, even the Kyokushin guys like to go over there and get beaten up.
[QUOTE=monji112000;777272]not everyone lost to the thai boxers. Not everyone just used chain punching. Ip Man had allot of students and some disciples. Allot of fights were at schools too not just roof tops.[/QUOTE]
Tell us who beat the Thai boxers.
Monji is correct IMO.
RE: Internet forums including KFO.
In the process of chit chat and egos—oft repeated part truths and half truths
can end up with the appearance of “Fact”.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;777311]RE: Internet forums including KFO.
In the process of chit chat and egos—oft repeated part truths and half truths
can end up with the appearance of “Fact”.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Tell us who beat the Thai boxers.
“Tell us who beat the Thai boxers”
Why?
In a context of serious discussion-sometime-maybe.
In the context of predictable internet chit chat- not necessary.
Have fun.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;777312]Tell us who beat the Thai boxers.[/QUOTE]
Well Sifu Lam had a situation with the Thai guys. One year he trained some VT people to fight with them, and they lost. He then went to Thailand, trained with them for awhile, came back, trained his guys and then fought them again. From what he has said they won the majority of the fights, but not all of them. He has said to me, Thai Boxing is king of the ring, Ving Tsun is king of the street, I believe him. He had/has a school in HK that teaches both VT and Thai Boxing, so I don’t know the details of what they were using when they fought the second time (T and Knifey you probably will think MT, we know this ). IMO, he just had them train harder and more along the lines of what they would be facing in the ring, instead of the traditional way of dealing with things, which makes perfect sense in ring fighting. On the street we don’t have that luxury of knowing who we are fighting and what their strengths/weaknesses are, so the strategy and tactics are different.
James
[QUOTE=sihing;777319]On the street we don’t have that luxury of knowing who we are fighting and what their strengths/weaknesses are, so the strategy and tactics are different.[/QUOTE]
What do you think the differences in strategies and tactics between the two are?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;777327]What do you think the differences in strategies and tactics between the two are?[/QUOTE]
You tell me, your the expert right