WC vesus Kyokushin

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

yuanfen made a good point about having principles internalized. Here’s something about that that I posted on the mantis forum:

I agree wholeheartedly that it limits you, just as fighting american rules limits me. What I was saying is you should be able to compensate for the limitation. To quote Tainan:

"Because a trad MArtist who has not been in a situation where they are in danger of getting beat up, IMO will always have doubt of themself of what they will do under pressure.

Musashi said that until you have fought in a death match you haven’t become a warrior, so I guess it is all a difference of degree."

and he’s right. However, in this day and age you can’t do eye gouges, groin shots, etc. at full speed be it training or competition. That’s where IMO understanding of principle comes in. I don’t buy into the myth that a style is “too deadly” to compete with. For example, shuai chiao has a principle called shearing. In a nutshell, shearing is applying to opposite forces to the body simultaneously, for example pushing your torso and pulling your leg.

Now, take that principle and apply it. As you are stepping forward, I sweep your leg and push backwards. It looks like this:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anim.../kouchigari.htm

WAIT A MINUTE!!! That’s a judo throw in the image, not a shuai chiao throw!!

Now, let’s apply it in a nastier way - as I step in, I block/push in on your leg with either my leg or arm. The other arm performs a chop, downward/diagonally into your neck.

There’s a throw I’ve seen mantis guys use, where from beside/diagonally behind the guy you will sweep his leg out while you strike him in the chest, knocking him back… same principle.

That’s how I think - I try to fit everything into the construct of a principle. Once I understand that principle I can make applications as I see fit.

an arcing horizontal strike can be a hook, elbow, etc. That’s what I see when I fight. If I happen to get into a street fight, does it matter if I use an elbow or a hook? not at all. If it lands properly, they both produce a similar result.

22

Good post SevenStar-
The shearing principle you refer to exists in wing chun too and can be used from wing chun structure and dynamics.

If wc folks want to enter some sporting event- they need to thoroughly understand the format way ahead of time- and also train accordingly for wind, stamina etc in addittion to “knowing”
wing chun. Self defense and sport are different tracks-with some connecting links.

23

Brithlor,
Obviously the Wc guy was the one that didn’t go to the other end of the mat, kneel and face away from his opponent as is tradition in Kyukushinkai and most other Japanese arts.

Ernie, WC is the baddest art in the world. All we need is a few forms, some chi sau, and the deadly Biu Jee form and we’re unbeatable. We don’t even have to train hard. Two or three days at the kwoon are enough…I have to stop now I’m laughing my butt off…LOL

24

I don’t recall anyone kneeling… I’ll have to look at it again… was it at the END of the video? For some reason all my downloads stop at 95% :-/.

I don’t think it’s fair to judge wing chun off of that clip… especially saying that wing chun is useless because the wing chun guy had to adapt… well the Kyokushin guy didn’t do so well either, neither was really dominating the fight as far as I could see.

25

I just watched the clip again… There was no “traditional” kneeling… the only kneeling I saw was when that guy kept getting punched in the nose :-P.

After watching it again it seemed like both used their techniques… but NEITHER used them that well… To say that either one used what the learned more effectively than the other is wrong in my opinion… not that I could do any better though :-P.

26

The wing chun guy is on the left. Wearing the sash (as opposed to the black belt).

Difficult to tell who was the better man, really. On the one hand, the karateka probably won within the confines of this competition.

On the other, the wing chun guy actually dropped the karateka several times with head shots.

So would the wing chun guy have won in a competition allowing headshots? Or would the karateka have been able to dole out headshots as well, if he were fighting in a competition that allowed them?

I don’t know. But I doubt that any fighting event (or real fight) is ever going to look clean enough to satisfy viewers expecting to see individual techniques as they appear in training.

Stuart B.

27

Brithlor,
I wrote:
“Obviously the WC guy was the one that [didn’t] go to the other end of the mat, kneel and face away from his opponent as is tradition in Kyukushinkai and most other Japanese arts”.

The key word was “didn’t”. Meaning that the WC guy should have knelt and faced away from his opponent after the foul shot or for what ever reason the Karateka had to stop. Most kung fu people wouldn’t know to go to the opposite corner. Most Japanese stylists do know.

28

Ah… I see now.

That’s who I suspected was the wing chun guy anyway…

I agree with apoweyn that in the confines of that particular match that it is really impossible to decide who is the better fighter… The wing chun guy got dropped 3 times from trips and sweeps… the Kyokushin got dropped twice by head injuries and once from a sweep or low kick… when the two were just exchanging blows it seemed as if the wing chun guy defended against the kicks better, even though he didn’t move around quite as much, while the Kyokushin guy got hit pretty solidly with them… however, it didn’t seem to do much damage to him, but it just might’ve been because they were both holding back.

Either way I don’t think much can be decided in these kind of fights… then again, how much can really be decided in fights with gloves and headgear aswell? Alot of wing chun (and other martial art techinques) require alot of precision that gloves don’t really allow for… so that isn’t 100% accurate either.

29

Originally posted by apoweyn
I don’t know. But I doubt that any fighting event (or real fight) is ever going to look clean enough to satisfy viewers expecting to see individual techniques as they appear in training.

Well yeah exactly!

The guy is having a hard enough time not getting kicked too hard.

How’s he supposed to live up to the umpteen number of theories everyone has unless his opponent sucks?