I’m curious about waist usage in the various wing chun lineages.
I did Wing Tsun for a bit less than a year before starting with my current teacher, with whom I’m studying Baji and Chen style Taiji. Wing Tsun definately gave me an understanding of approaching arts via principles, something which is quite similar in internal arts. However, both Baji and Taiji have really elaborated on waist use for creating power.
So, I’ve been wondering about this. The waist, in our WT classes, was held stationary and the hands (elbows) did the movement. I’d like to hear your insights on this.
I am not looking to bash any style or to argue one way is better than the other. I have naturally, having done these styles, contemplated on the differences and even though I practise different styles now, I still value many things I learned in WT.
in the wong shun leung method the waist is a critical factor & is used to devestating affect.
i can’t speak for wing tsun, but will ask if you only learnt the first form?
the use of the waist becomes very apparent in the second form as well as in stepping & chi sao.
vts
Jui Wan method uses waist power. I’m unclear on this: "The waist, in our WT classes, was held stationary and the hands (elbows) did the movement. " How do you hold your waist stationary and still fight effectively?
You should have started learning using the waist in Lat sao program 2, when you have to gan da a low punch, putting one’s waist in to it gets maximal effect.
I study Ip Ching lineage and the turning stance (iu ma) and hip power is essential. I cant understand anyone who doesn’y make use of an essential joint in creating powere.
How can you perform a turning punch without the hip / waist?? How can you create Fa Jing without it ??
If youre not being taught how to use the waist then i would question why !
Because there are other sources of power available. eg..the whole body [/B]
Isn’t the waist part of the whole body?? How can you not use the waist? Where does the pwoer in your kicks in particular come from?? How is it possible to isolate the waist from wider unified body movement??
I had learnt all of SNT, but not Chum Kiu. Maybe that’s the source of my lack of understanding.
Lemme ask something a bit more specific. When punching, how do you use your hips/waist in your style?
Baji has quite a complex way of issuing power and the waist plays a big part in it. In Taiji, everything is initiated from the dantien. In WT, I had worked my centerline punches a lot, but waist/hip movement was minimal. It was more that my just elbows were driving my punched.
After starting Baji, I’ve only done a little practise on centerline punches, but I’ve also tried out of curiosity to add that twist of the waist that’s now regular to my punching to WT type punching. I haven’t worked enough on that to really know the results. I’d like to keep practising those, however, but I’m really curious about if I should add this component or not.
So,
Does the waist sort of initiate the punch? Or do the hands lead?
Is the waist movement minimal or more pronounced? Is it more of just an opening of the kua (the hip joint)?
Does the spine sort of act as an axis around which you twist and punch?
I understand there maybe a variety of different answers from different Wing Chun lineages and I fully except that and hope we can remain a-politic yet.
Oh, and a few points about my understanding of the art. I was just a grade 2 beginner, so don’t bash please.
I never worked a direct connection between turning and punching. I understood turning, which of course uses the waist/hips, was done to avoid using force on force.
And sure, kicks definately require using the waist to a certain point, I’m talking about punching.
And as for holding your waist stationary and still fighting .. well, we kept our hips squared on the opponents, except when turning, but even after a turn we’d return to being square on to deliver most of the attacks. Of course, it wasn’t a matter of being rigid and rooted to just one spot, refusing to move your waist.
Okay, just thought I’d answer some of your queries and thoughts to give you a view of my perspective.
Wing Chun Kuen, in my understanding, used both unlinked (localized limb/part) and linked (whole body) power. The latter functions off the harmony of ma (horse), yiu (waist), sao (arm/hand).
It might be easier to see in the side turning punch (pien, juen, chor, etc.) or in Chum Kiu than in the front punch or Siu Lien/Nim Tao, but over time, with training, you should feel it there for you as needed.
Ah, ok, now it makes sense. You weren’t learning fighting yet.
I never worked a direct connection between turning and punching.
Consider the distance between yourself and your opponent. If you turn as you punch, you shave off about 3 inches. Now consider the power generated by simply throwing your fist straight out from your body - you have the weight of the fist itself, coupled with the strength and speed generated by your arm and shoulder muscles pushing out. Ok but not impressive.
Now, think about how a bullwhip works - if you have a 10 foot whip, and you hold it 3 feet from the tip, when you lash it out the tip might sting, but nowhere near as much as if you hold the whip by the handle, 10 feet from the tip, and crack it.
The same exact set of physics principles that enables you to slice through a melon by touching it with a thin piece of leather (watch someone crack a whip on a watermelon kapow!) is what enables you to properly align your body and move it so that you slam someone on their @ss by what looks like you tapping their chest (watch someone do a proper 1-inch punch).
Its all physics, man, no magic in wing chun, just science
There is a difference between using the waist and using the pelvis. Both use different body mechanics and different methods to generate and absorb force.
Whatever method you use, the body mechanics work as a two way street. Force should be able to be rooted or brought up from the ground.
Sometimes it’s better to use the body and hands together, and sometimes it better to just use the hands alone. WC has both options.
SNT/SLT trains the body from a stationary position. If you cannot generate sufficient power just by standing and punching, you won’t be able to efficiently do it while moving, turning, or shifting. You’ll only be using movement to cover up deficiencies in your own training.
“Consider the distance between yourself and your opponent. If you turn as you punch, you shave off about 3 inches. Now consider the power generated by simply throwing your fist straight out from your body - you have the weight of the fist itself, coupled with the strength and speed generated by your arm and shoulder muscles pushing out. Ok but not impressive.”
(nod) 'xactly and how we started doing things immediately in Baji. I was, after having done it now in Baji, amazed at the lack of it in my WT. So, it was just a case of me not being advanced enough in it, as I expected. Now, I’m really curious about the exact mechanics of it, but I guess a forum will prove a bit too inadequate for total communication of those.
It’s a matter of me trying to connect what understanding I gained from my WT practise to what I’m learning now. Of course, it may not all be compatible, but I’m just contemplating, okay?
“SNT/SLT trains the body from a stationary position. If you cannot generate sufficient power just by standing and punching, you won’t be able to efficiently do it while moving, turning, or shifting. You’ll only be using movement to cover up deficiencies in your own training.”
Originally posted by Daredevil
I was, after having done it now in Baji, amazed at the lack of it in my WT. So, it was just a case of me not being advanced enough in it, as I expected.
Best not to judge the system based on deficient lineages.
