I am looking for any and all information about this school.
Especially their Live in Training program.
Anyone trained there or know someone who has?
The professional student program looks rather expensive, is it worth it?
5…4…3…2…1…
I dont know the history here (obviously there is some) but I’ve known people who trained and lived there. Check out www.wahlum.com
My sigung lived there and was a senior instructor for many years (many years ago, maybe in the 70’s?). From everything I’ve seen from those who have trained there they get quality training. I’m not so sure about the fighting, but the training is pretty intense.
The live in training may sound expensive. I would do a study of the area and find out what the cost of living is in the area. Check out the cost of apartments or what the cost of living in a college dorm would be for a year. I think you may discover that when it includes your training it may not seem so expensive.
From what I understand the physcal training is very demanding. You should be ready to work hard when you get there.
Wah Lum does not teach as many fightiing drills or self defense techniques as the other “mainstream” mantis schools. You would have to decide what is enough. They do address this with basic chin na techniques, two person forms and basic application theory as you learn solo sets.
I feel that one reason there is less two person drills is because they have so many students that go there. I think around 300. It would be very, very hard to teach a big class a lot of extensive two person drills. If you have 40 people in class it would take an hour just to learn one basic drill. Even if the students were trying. They must have something going for them since thye have so many students and do not have the colored belts and “Karate” name to pull in the students.
I think the lack of two person drills is one thing that must be sacrificed when a school grows. I have not seen many curriculms out there that can handle this well. I teach a lot of two person but I only have 65 students and even then it is difficult because only 50% try.
You could find an instructor who teaches only the fighting but with this type of instruction he would have less students and could not offer the service a full time school like this can. I think you can see the trade off.
Although it is not a mainstream mantis style they have produced many instructors who have gone out and started teaching other mainstream mantis styles within a year or so after leaving the wl system. They must teach enough along the lines of the mainstream guys to be able to produce a guy who can teach a mantis system in such a short time.
I could be a great foundation to get started on the fast track.
I am sure that is more info than you wanted. Just wanted to give you some posiitive and negative points to help you make a choice.
Teaching mantis is tough. Mr 108 of cck tcpm has one of the best curriculums for teaching praying mantis in a high quality fast method that I have come across. It gets to the point of fighting using mantis theory. It is yet to proven in teaching the masses but I think it can.
You would have to move to Yellowknife Canada to learn this system though:eek:
You may have more fun in Orlando:)
Thanks for both of those comments.
mantid1 - No amount of info is too much for me 
The expense in and of itself doesn’t seem ridiculous, assuming it covers room and board. The issue would be earning the money while staying there. Is it possible to hold down any sort of outside job while Live in Training? Is there possibly some kind of Live/Work arrangement they have for those willing? To me a temple is a place where you work to earn your keep and live there, and I certainly don’t have the savings for what would basically be a kung fu college education or extended vacation.
When you say “not mainstream” I guess you are referring to the forms being different?
The website says they test students current ability and train them based on this. I like this concept.
What sort of “intense training” do they use? Lots of stance work and drills/callisthenics? or do they use other things as well (i.e. weightvest training, mayflower posts etc.)?
Thanks again.
What some of the professional students do at the Temple is work at home and save up then come down and spend a few months training. When the money runs out they go back home and work and save again.
There are jobs around here but the problem with working here is not having enough time to train. You can’t work here and be a professional student.
Professional training is more intensive than the regular class so a month for live-in students is like 2 or 3 for regular students. You take 2 regular classes (morning and evening) plus privates plus you’re expected to train on your own in between.
Mainstream would be more along the lines of 7 star, Plum flower, tai chi mantis, tai chi plum flower…etc.
Most mantis systems were developed from absorbing material from other systems but they maintain a similar “flavor” in the way the apply their techniques.
In my opinion one of the major differences is in the foot work. You know the footwork is the foundation. Since some of the manits footwork was replaced by the tan tui footwork in wl it did change things a bit. The dynamics are much different because of this. It is up to each individual to decide if it was for better or worse.
In the end it does not matter what style you are studying it all falls back to each individual instructor. There are “mainstream” guys out there who understand the fighting theories behind mantis and there are mainstream guys out there who do not. Same goes for wl instructors.
You cant go by forms to determine if mantis theories are being taught in a system. There may be a seven star instructor who knows 100 mantis forms but does not understand what makes the fighting system work.
You may have another seven star guy who only teaches three forms but has a handle on what the system is about and can teach it from a fighting point of view.
In my opinion the second guy would be the better choice for an instructor, But it all depends on what you want from your training.
I will never know all there is to know. I am just happy to know that I will always be able to learn more:)
wh
I am very new to Wah Lum (about 4 months) and I come from a Karate background with ZERO experience in CMA.
I am not in the best of shape after 3 knee surgeries , but I still feel like I am in much better shape than the average person my age I come across. I started WH with my son because after he earned his Black Belt in Kempo he wanted to do something different. We watched Xtreme MA on Discovery and that was our first intro to Master Chan. When we started looking for a school we got lucky and found a school about 5 minutes from our house.
First and foremost we’re both doing it because it’s fun. But I certainly do not feel like I am suffering from a lack of fighting technigues and there is an emphasis on physical fitness which will always translate into fighting skills.
So if other schools are much tougher than WH then honestly I wouldn’t really want to try them because they’re for super athletes/fighters and there is just no way i could succeed.
From everything that I’ve heard about training at the temple from senior students it isn’t a long term deal. It’s kind of a boot camp for advanced students and want to be Sifus to sharpen their skills and get to work with Master Chan.
About the knees
If you have knee problems, from what I have observed from viewing that system, it may not be your best choice.
Best wishes & good luck!
~BTL
Bei is right knee problems could be an issure if want to become an instructor in the system. If you just want to train it should be ok.
A good instructor should be able to teach most students with physical limitations within reason. If an instructor or system can not adapt then it may not be that great of a system.
It all depends on how severe your problems are.
Crushing Fist
The professional student program is good as long as your commited and willing to sacrifice. Think of it like an educational experience. You should expect to “live” this kung fu training 7 days a week. It is sort of an accelerated program. Yes you will have time for a part-time job. Some folks just dont like to work. But from what I understand, in the beginning you will be so dead tired you will not want to work. The intensity factor is from the forms work, there pretty challenging physically. The reason for the knee problems are simple, pm me and I can explain. BTW, what are your aspirations, do you want to be a teacher or just wanting to learn more? Anyway, good luck and keep us posted.
Yeah i was always interested in that as a kid. Sounded like a great deal down there. Very interesting topic we got going here.
I started to reply to the question of knee problems and legs in general but then decided against.
Since it’s been brought up again why not discuss it openly? No need for PM.
Not trying to stir anything up but seriously, go ahead and explain the problem because personally I don’t understand it and I’m interested in hearing the details.
As I understand it some believe the leg alignment is wrong but from my own experience it’s the same as I learned in the multiple Kenpo schools, TKD, Shotokan, etc. and others over the years. It’s a ‘boxers’ stance, lead toe turned inwards.
I’ve been doing it that way since 1974 and it hasn’t ruined my knees. I also don’t see this claim levelled at other styles with the same stances.
Now, the overall training is very tough on the legs and if you don’t train your way up to it you’ll hurt yourself trying to do some of the advanced stuff.
Please explain as I really want to understand what this issue is about.
BTW, I don’t mean to be arguing with you Jim but the intensity isn’t so much from the forms work as it is the drills that wear you down before you even get to the forms. I can only speak about the Temple itself, your training may have been a little different (but I KNOW it was hella hard).
I found a couple of pictures of fighters with the turned in lead toe. Maybe that’s not the issue and it’s something else but I’m just not following you guys.
I’m really sorry, it’s going to sound like I’m picking on you guys and you’re all much better than me but now I’m curious.
In the first picture Steve and John look like they have toe forward, yours looks very slightly turned in (force of habit maybe or optical illusion), but Master Shr is definitely turned in.
So do you guys train lead toe pointing forward like Taiji or do you turn it in slightly protecting the groin with your lead knee?
Hll
WL knee problems are from the horse and side horse stances, wu dip ma(butterfly stance)gwai ma.
In the PL pic, we are in transitional move in the pic but the toe is turned in. You have to straighten the foot to transition forward.
Here is a great pic of the wl knee problem
Thanks for the reply, and explanation. Wu Dip Ma is a tough one and takes a lot of practice. What’s interesting is how often it appears in the forms. Hardly at all actually.
Interesting yong fa for it though but no good at all if not trained.
As for the others (sei ping ma (riding horse), dun san ma (hill climbing) and gwai ma (kneeling)) I have to disagree unless you can explain specifically what’s done wrong in those 3 stances.
I was thinking it was the turned in toe being poor alignment but guess I was wrong. All I ever hear is that the WL leg alignment is off on their stances. Maybe someone can explain how Wah Lum riding horse or hill climbing horse differs from other styles.
I’ve also attached a photo of my representation of die bok ma with double broadswords for anyone to correct if I’m not doing it right. But then I’m not exactly the best representation of Wah Lum since are many more out there much better than myself.
This pic shows very bad alignment on the back leg
The way I understand it the foot and knee need to be pointing in the same direction, or least close to it. Otherwise the strain on the knee can cause serious soft tissue damage.
Turning the front foot in is a good stance… as long as you turn the knee too. All the Tai Chi I do (Yang and Chen) uses this type of stance.
Hua Lin, I can’t really tell from your pic but your stance does not appear to have this problem, at least not to such an extreme.
I always keep my knee over my toe. That’s how I learned and nobody has ever told me any different. That’s how you prevent problems and most likely the reason I never developed a problem in my 25+ years of training.
That is also how I taught during my time at the Temple and with my own short lived school. I don’t recall any instructors teaching it any different either so I can’t say Wah Lum does it ‘wrong’.
What are my aspirations? good question
well I already am a teacher, not in mantis but in the art of “shaolin-do”
::waits for booing and hissing to stop::
What I have seen of mantis has always made it a favorite style of mine, and the mantis itself is one of my favorite creatures.
Now what is my aspiration?
Well I have wanted to start a kung fu temple of my very own for quite some time…
A place where serious students can live and train without the need for outside attachments or money. Sure, classes could be offered for outsiders which could help with revenue for the temple, but for the core live-in students the only requirement would be to work… hard physical labor. I’m thinking an organic perma-culture farm so that the produce could both feed the students and be sold to markets to provide more of the revenue needed for such a place. Kung Fu training and demanding phyiscal labor… what could be better? Think of it as a hippie commune without the hippies and more hand to hand combat.
I almost began this once at an existing wanna-be hippie commune type place, but decided against it at the time for various reasons.
So that is my aspiration…
You may say I’m a dreamer…
but I’m not the only one.
I think you are on to something Crushing Fist, sounds like a neat concept. Maybe we can all give some ideas or experiences. No hissing sounds from me, btw.