The following video demonstrates the Fajin training exercises adopted in the Chinese Taoist Martial Arts Association of Skokie, Illinois:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2Qvo_BUmNU
Bull**** for the weak of mind
You must be kidding. Look at the stance of the fajing dummies. Takes no special skills of any kind to send anyone in those stances into the wall.
Hmmm.. compliance, again.
also, it helps to know a little bit about neuromuscular physiology: notice how he gives a quick tug before he pushes? that is essentially giving a quick stretch to the biceps muscles, which will generate a reflexive recoil (pulling back against the force); when that happens, he goes with it, adding his strength to the person’s pull back, which sends them flying…
[QUOTE=cjurakpt;745517]also, it helps to know a little bit about neuromuscular physiology: notice how he gives a quick tug before he pushes? that is essentially giving a quick stretch to the biceps muscles, which will generate a reflexive recoil (pulling back against the force); when that happens, he goes with it, adding his strength to the person’s pull back, which sends them flying…[/QUOTE]
Well, I wonder…
This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin. The power is generated from the feet so there is very little movement in the body unless taking a step. The students that are flying backwards are not acting but are responding to the fajin. The first action in many of these exercises is to uproot your partner quickly and then to create the structure for them to rebound off of. So you will see the students go onto their heels because they are being uprooted. The students stand rather stiffly so that you can see the power generated and they do not get hurt. If they were to relax they would still be uprooted but instead of their arms taking the fajin their chest would. That would not be a practical exercise if you were to break your partner’s ribs on an exercise. I can tell you that I have studied internal martial arts for over 2 decades and with some very reputable masters and I have never seen/felt what Master Lin has demonstrated. While some of my former instructors could use fajin from certain postures or after preparing themselves, Master Lin can use fajin from any posture at any time. Not only that but he has a very systematic way of teaching how to use fajin in this manner. Videos can be deceiving. Especially in trying to determine how much power is generated and from where. In this case one needs to feel it to really believe it. Even after feeling it, it boggles the mind that it can be done with such ease.
Well, if it’s real then it’s real - and if it really is one of those things that you have to feel to understand,t hen fair enough. Personally, if I hear excuses being made then i doubt.
Vidoes of top ranked Yiquan people genuinely fajinging people look different - there’s clearly much more of a push involved, and it clearly also relies on direction and off balancing. Can someone touch your arm and knock you back? Well, even my kid can push me if he catches me off balance and pushes just right during push hands… and he has a problem with keeping his guard too stiff, so I can push his whole body by pushing his arms… but, I doubt the video - really, as honest explorers of what is the real truth then we have to be critical, and good for the guy for putting it out there, but people will, rightly, be critical until he demonstrates on more unwilling partners… It’s a matter of the “next step” where CMA stylists demonstrate against good level opponents from other arts - boxing, JJ, Muay Thai etc… like san shou will fight Muay Thai and so on… Then we can really see, and there won’t be any need for any excuse - and no room for any doubt.
I spar with all kinds of people, and it is perfectly possible to use techniques of pushing and touching hands/push hands fighting even good fighters. Actually, pushing is so frowned upon that a lot of systems are taken aback when you do it - but the good stylists whot hink about their art soon adapt, and when they start resisting, it’s a whole different story.
Greetings..
It works, or it doesn’t.. and until it is tested in fair combat, you simply don’t know.. stories aren’t your own experiences, and knowledge is born of experience..
The clip leaves room for doubt, based on my own direct experiences.. neutralizing the “Fa Jing”, as demonstrated, would be no real challenge.. now, if the purpose of the clip is to demonstrate the skills of the person pushing, it would have more validity if the opponents offered some dynamic interplay.. the pusher telegraphs his intentions such that a neutralizing response should be not so difficult.. if the opponent presents a consistent and substantial level of Peng, you don’t even need Fa Jing.. the pusher’s movements are abrupt and threatening, which alerts the opponent of the nature of the situation.. good technique is smooth, natural, and almost unobservable.. the clip has the appearance of mostly external attributes.. but, as i said, until i have my own direct experience with the pusher, it is only my “opinion”, which is subject to change based on new or better evidence..
Be well..
Greetings..
LOL, after viewing again, it occurs to me the the Uke’s feet are parallel.. no support available.. further diminishing the credibility of the “Fa Jing”..
Be well..
This is one of the top rated push hands experts in China and the world:
I am not trying to denegrate your sifus skill he may have great skill but this demo does not show what many think of as fajing. There are different types.
He is showing body connection and usage of the body, For a fajing demo you do not unbalance your dummy before issuing power.
For a proper demo the body structures of those in the vid should be reversed. The sifu should be in a shoulder width upright stance the dummy should have good body structure and be allowed to use a forward bracing stance. The dummy should also be using a thick blocking shield,I prefer Thai training bags but a chicago phone book would suffice. The sifu’s arm should be perfectly straight with the palm flat on the target. No step should be taken at all,none,did I mention no stepping? Power should issue without the palm ever moving off the target . To recap equal distance upright horse ,arm straight,palm flat, palm stays flat,no stepping dummy in a bracing stance at the least then bang target should look like the targets in the vid. real fajin the target doenst fly back but would be dropped . For demo flying back is ok,dont want anyone to get hurt.
Greetings..
Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a “sensitive” player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..
Be well…
[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;745922]Greetings..
Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a “sensitive” player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..
Be well…[/QUOTE]
That’s really good open, honest approach - exactly what we need - the courage to say, yes I like this, I don’t like that.
Well, I’m also a student at this school, so maybe I can add a few comments…
Uprooting is simply part of the motion for some of the variations. The whole movement is a single circle, so it’s actually more to practice this. But there’s also some variations which don’t include this; it’s not a dependency. There are many styles which make use of this practice. See Chen-style Tai Chi, which often applies force in one direction for sending you in another.
hunt1 wrote:
“For a proper demo the body structures of those in the vid should be reversed. The sifu should be in a shoulder width upright stance the dummy should have good body structure and be allowed to use a forward bracing stance. The dummy should also be using a thick blocking shield,I prefer Thai training bags but a chicago phone book would suffice. The sifu’s arm should be perfectly straight with the palm flat on the target. No step should be taken at all,none,did I mention no stepping? Power should issue without the palm ever moving off the target . To recap equal distance upright horse ,arm straight,palm flat, palm stays flat,no stepping dummy in a bracing stance at the least then bang target should look like the targets in the vid. real fajin the target doenst fly back but would be dropped . For demo flying back is ok,dont want anyone to get hurt.”
I’d be interested in seeing an example of how this would look. I’m not sure why the teacher woudl exhibit what I consider might be bad structure when performing fajin, but maybe I’m not getting what you’re suggesting. And this was a coorperative partner exercise, so resistence is the opposite of what we’re going here. It’s more like the person being thrown is live weight to practice against. If they resist, how do you measure how much progress you’ve made… it’s dependent on how much they resist, and how good they are.
Thanks for the comments…
Chris
[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;745922]Greetings..
Water-quan: Nice clip.. there were a couple of interesting movements.. but, the quick pull (uprooting?) prior to the push, is sufficiently telegraphed that it allows a “sensitive” player to follow the direction (pull) and effect his own push before the pull can be redirected into its push.. overall, too much external effort.. Now, i do like some of the redirecting movements..
Be well…[/QUOTE]
I agree…more like wrestling (especially the clips of actual competition in the ring) than true push hands. Elbows were up to high alot, which opened up vital areas for attack.
Regarding Master Lin I think it would be best to feel before coming to a conclusion
Maybe a discussion on what true Fajin is and how to apply would be appropriate.
Peace
Greetings..
Baqualin: i agree, as i have stated previously, my opinion is subject to change base on new or revised evidence.. i would be honored to cross hands with Sifu Lin..
As for Fa Jing, much of my Chen training utilized a very external expression of the “internal” principle of Fa Jing.. it has only been in the last 5-6 years that i have found teachers that truly understand AND can teach “Fa Jing”.. and i say this only because i have no internal or external skills that can even begin to match their effortless control of their opponents.. their skills at listening, sticking and adhering put them present as their opponents attempt to issue what they believe is Fa Jing.. the result is both hilarious and profound.. the opponent’s “Fa Jing” is manifested in reverse, they blast themselves backward or sideways or even up.. When they decide to issue their own “Fa Jing”, it is very subtle.. it perfectly finds the “insubstantial” element of the opponent’s attack, and at the moment the opponent feels strongest, their weakness is exploited..
Last week at push practice i had manipulated a pretty good advantage, i had my teacher’s arm pinned across his chest, i was substantial on his upper arm, near the shoulder and perpendicular to the line between his heels.. as i attempted to issue some Jing to unbalance him it felf like he sneezed a tiny sneeze.. next thing i know, he’s holding me up by my wrist with that impish smile .. now, i’m no slouch at pushing, several gold medals from international competitions, quite a bit of full-contact back in the '60s-'70s.. and more recently, a bit of MT, NHB, grappling, and such.. and none of this stuff even affects my teachers.. it’s so humbling.. but, the exhibitions of amazing “fa Jing” like in the clip, is just the tiny tip of an enormous iceberg.. and, to add insult to injury, my teachers say, when you get grasp on this.. maybe you start on the good stuff..
I’m certainly not suggesting that i have the “goods”, but i am fortunate to have a couple of sources.. and i deeply respect their patience with an old dog like me..
Be well…
[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;746096]Greetings..
i have no internal or external skills that can even begin to match their effortless control of their opponents.. …[/QUOTE]
Why is that, Bob?
[QUOTE=ramszman;745846]This was a video demonstration of how to test your ability to use fajin. I was there at the taping of this and it is very real. If you notice Master Lin maintains his structure to create maximum power when using fajin. [/QUOTE]
Complete and utter B.S.
If you really believe the cr@p he is selling you, let me send you some literature on some swamp land I have for sale.
One would have to be completely clueless not to see the “opponents” jumping up and back… this cr@p is completely fake and is exactly what gives MA’s a bad rep.
This demonstration is complete and utter phoniness. Can you say “Mc Dojo cult”?
If his students believe this junk, they are as brainwashed as the students of the “aikido chi blast master” who got destroyed by the Karate/BJJ guy several weeks ago:
Same bu11sh1t, different country-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tib2Urowsdc&NR
And what happens when phonies like this get called out-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxb0PCBV0vk
.
I think I would have laughed at the first vid more if I hadn’t seen the second.
That was really sad. The “aikido chi blast master” looked kind of old…