Using Kung Fu Against Boxing

Mad hurry, just skimread the thread so apologies if any of this has been said or whatever… just some random thoughts/pbservations.

1)

Good post about moving straight being useless, but the second half is not true. It is as tiring moving around to evade as it is moving around to chase. A bad boxer will continue swinging at the you as you move back and around and will soon tire themselves out. But, after maybe… er… three weeks or so most boxers have learnt not to do this, so they will ‘hunt’ you down… move forward quickly until they have the position to hit you. It is easier to change direction going forwards than backwards, plus in the ring you have to be aware of your parameters going backwards, and in the street you need to know you’re not going to fall over too. So, just evading is not a good habit to get into.

However, as a drill, practise the exercise (out of class if they don’t do it in) where your mate is trying to nail you and you are only using ducking, weaving and crowding to avoid his punches (tho taking a couple on your guard is acceptible too), and not hitting back. Boxers do this. you will learn how to use the boxinf footowrk and incorporate any useful fu footwork too.

The footwork thing is important, but if you’re going for evasive footwork, make sure you learn to keep striking. I don’t know your style but in a style with a good back weighted stance this can be used to your advantage as ling as you’re not flat-footed about it, as you can keep punching hard ‘jab-like’ jik chun as you go back and boxers find it difficult to fathom your structure. Every time you step back, strike!

People like to say ‘footwork footwork footwork’ but footwork has a purpose! If you can’t deliver the goods all the footwork in the world just makes you a good dancer! :smiley:

So keep up the footowork drills but body unity (striking from that footwork) is more important in the end in boxing/fu/anything.

2)

Again good advice, but bear in mind that it7s a helluva lot easier to cover boxing style with boxing gloves than bare-knuckle/mma gloves. So, if you practise this way you’re going to be nailed easily on the street/ring. It’s invaluble practice but not at the expense of slipping, ducking, parrying, crowding, clinching and the rather nebulous ‘footwork’.

3)

No offense, just a question, but how often have you tried this against boxers? In no way are boxers lumbering brutes.

This is a fallacy I remember from my aiki days. It takes longer to move your whole body round somebody else’s than it does for a boxer to turn on a dime and get a punch or two in! So this ‘by the time’ crap is just that! every time I see the words ‘by the time’ associated with boxers, esp footwrok I have to laugh! They are some of the fastest fighters in the business!

Find one of the Fedor Emelianenko training vids on sherdog and watch him training his foowork, turning and punching, turning and punching, turnigng and punching. All boxers do this, and I have to say, I did it in my fu too.

Turning the corner and getting someone’s back against someone with that kind of basic basic trainign is a whole different ballgame to cooperative/semi-resistant trainign drills in your kwoon.

Sorry if I seem harsh Earth Dragon, I have found your advice works against points fighters and some karate people. Boxers: no chance! Where do people get the idea that boxers are linear? They are very well trained in the short circles: in footowrk and handwork, and those are the most dangerous.

4)

True but again I say shielding is not necessarily a good habit either, as it makes it more difficult to see. This is where upper body movement comes in, and again body unity. If you can move (duck, weave, bob, whatever TF you wanna call it) you will be able to avoid quickly (of course practise this with parries and especially slipping) and strike from any angle. Of course, when you duck you should be as close as possible to keeping your eyes on your opponent but you will still lose your structure temporarily. BUT, make that ‘weaker’ structure part oif your system if it isnt already… in wing chun there’s the third form, often said to be for ‘mistakes’. In my mind you should be able to deliberately put yourself in that compromised position to gain a structural and positional advantage and make that duck part of the roll into the next power strike from whatever angle you like. I’m sure whatever your system is has the same principle. I’ve met it in many fu styles. It is maintaining your body unity in the pinch that is vital.

5) To everyone saying do this kick do that kick, he7s already said they’re not working their kicks in the MMA trainign yet. The reason for this is just as David Ross said. If you can’t get the basic footwork down to keep punching, slipping, dodging, punching, punching, covering, clinching, you try to kick and you’re ****ed. They’ll step in and chin you. Or they’ll take your balance,. Or you’ll fall over.

Superman123, keep practising the way they7re telling you so far with regards to the lack of kicks.

6)

No but if you can parry it you can pak it, if you can pak it you can jum it, it you can pak it or jum it, you can grab it. My boxing oparry is pretty much the same as a pak, and a loose fingered pak is a strike, slip and grab at the same time.

And this is from sparring people with pulses! However, when you’ve grabbed the arm, a lot of fuers tend to think that’s the end of it, when it’s usually really easy to get out of a grab. Er… they just pull back, whilst punching/kciking you with a anotehr limb.

So, I’ll agree with Ross that the wrapping is much more important (read = high % )

By all means keep practising your lop da, or lop fuk or whatevr but remember that until it gets really really good, against most live opponents your not going to turn the corner, your not going to break their structure and destroy them, but your/their hand will slip out, your hand will end up by your hip and you’Ll stand there with a surprised expression eating leather! A lop, or any follow-up to a grab is a more advanced technique than pulling your arm back and punching with the other!. And before Ross jumps on me for that, I don’t mean it’s going to beat the simple techs of the boxers, I mean it’s harder so it’s lower % than the simple techs of the boxers.

Wrapping is safer, easier, higher percentage and you can work it from the clinch or into the clinch which makes it good against MMA/boxers.

7

Just cos it’s worth repeating.

8

Good point. Learn the boxing first. Give it a good six months, then if you’re feeling co(ky try to work in the fu. The parallels should come out and may be usable earlier.

TenTigers then gives the opposite opinion… but to me if you don’t learn the boxing first, in the confines of an MMA class that’s ostensibly boxing, you’re ****ed. That’s for the oft-stated reasons that most fuers don’t practise live in the same way as boxers. So while TenTigers is correct, that’s assuming you’ve had a teacher who uses sparring and full-speed resistance drills. If not, it7s no good.

9

Nah, most boxers are taught from day one to work combos high-low, low-high, high-high-low, high-low-high etc. Theres’s no reason not to be able to do this with your fu and play the boxer at the same game. It’s a good strategy: boxers use it cos it works. But if as GDA says, they always work high, go low, get them to cover low and go high etc.

10

This is advice from somebody who spars with no or MMA gloves, not boxing gloves. If you spar with boxing gloves and you follow this advice you’ll learn just how stupid you look and feel to get knocked down with your own hands! I’ve seen so many beginners and fuers (oh yeah, and did I mention I may have done it myself a few times…?! :wink: ) trying to keep this half-assed guard and the punch hits your gloves/arms and knocks your own fists straight back into your head. ****ing hilarious. The worst is when after the first shot you have that moment of smiling to yourself and surprise when you realise you’ve been hit with your own hands, and then you get hit again! :smiley:

It’s not bad advice, but sucks against 14-16 ozers.

That’s actually how they want us to block. Hands up in front of eyes pretty much, and arms firm so when you do get hit your own hands don’t hit you in the face. I find two problems with this. One, I hate my vision being crap, and it makes it so much harder to concentrate and see with big boxing gloves right in front of my face. I find that I have no peripheal (spelling) vision available to me like that…Secondly, I don’t like being so firm in my arms. Sure, it makes me arms not hit me in the face, but at the same time, it seems to slow me down a lot, and also takes away from other techiniques, like stepping to the side or back or whatever and using your arm to sneak around the other way under his and punch him back.

I have already learned that boxers aren’t slow turning or anything like that. If I try to step to their side and hit them in the side, all they do is turn their body and they are guarding against me again. Then they just move back in.

Depending on who it is, most of them being fast, the punches seem rather hard to wrap. Some of the newer people leave their arms out, but others (like the guy I usually spar) have really long arms, stand back and just throw quick jabs. By the time I block the punch, his hand is already guarding again.

We have also been working on some jujitsu moves lately, which I find fun. There are some throws we have learned for that to take someone down, but..again…none of the instructors have showed us the throw if someone just does a quick jab at them. Whether they are fast enough to do it or not I don’t know. I mean..if we ever could get down on the floor, I seem to do pretty well there. But those quick jabs and crosses get me. And most people there don’t really even throw many hooks or uppercuts when sparring.

change stance

Well since they dont let you kick-which is the best versus boxers-try to quiqly change your stance from rightguard to leftguard and backwards.if you do that exactly before he attack he stop you counterattack.also having a leftguard can disorient an anexperinted boxer

I think I understand what Ray is saying, as we do the same in Hung-Ga and I have studied a smattering of Ying Yi Kuen. We call it Iron Door Jam, if the arms are crossed, it is Golden Scissor Hands, or sup ji sao, and you can also use Beggar’s Hands.
I think what people might have misunderstood, is you don’t simply stand there with your hands in front of your face waiting for the opponent to slam your guard into you-(that’s what WE do to them!):stuck_out_tongue:
You are just a bit out of range, and when your opponent starts to move, THEN you attack, jamming him and going through.
You must intercept his intent.

and always remember the Ten Tigers motto:

“When your opponent moves in-you move in.
When your opponent moves out-you move in.
When you opponent stands still- you move in” :smiley:

The Chinaman with “pink” short.

It you were not a boxer then it may not be a good idea to box a boxer.

CMA = Problem Solving

If you don’t allow your opponent to put any weight on his leading leg then he cannot punch at you. So what’s your best solution (assume there is no rules in combat)?

Ditto. And while my old kwoon didn’t do the point sparring game we DID do some boxing (my sifu’s son was a wicked boxer).

Lots of good stuff on this thread but I’ll throw in my two cents.

I’ve been doing kung fu for about 10 years but we fairly recently had a guy come to our school that was a Golden Gloves boxer before. He’s eventually become my sparring partner and we’ve had a lot of fun exchanging info and blows (which wasn’t quite as fun!) Basically we spar San Shou rules but we don’t have mats so we can’t throw.

Like you, it took a while to get over the jab. Its fast and although its called it a “jab” it can actually be quite powerful. In fact, I once got a bloody nose from one of his jabs.

A couple of pointers:

  1. Like David Jamieson and Masterkiller pointed out. You gotta “close up” or “cover up” more than you do in traditional kung fu. Kung fu is designed to deliver the maximum payload but it also leaves your opponent an opening. You gotta wait to deliver that payload and open up only when you have a clean shot.

  2. Shorten up your techniques. There is form and their is fighting. Form is designed to teach you the correct Jin/Ging. There is an expression in kung fu long---->short, round----->straight and soft----->hard. When you begin training in the form you want to be long, round and soft. That is to teach the correct Jin/Ging. As you progress you become tighter and more explosive. Thats what you want to bring to the ring.

  3. As was also already pointed out. Use angles to your advantage. You’ve got to keep pressing forward. If you back straight up you keep backing into his striking range. You’ve got to sidestep and press forward. When you attack on the angle his ability to root is also very weak and sets you up for takedown.

  4. Keep your feet moving. In addition to side stepping you’ve got to keep your feet moving. Boxers are very nimble on there feet. You’ve got to be the same. Only assume a more stable stance when you move into the clinch. 3 heights for 3 ranges. Kicks, high and mobile…Punches, medium and more rooted…Clinch, low and strong.

  5. Use your jab to deflect his jab and get inside. A jab is very fast, so what’s the best way to defend it? With a jab of course!

  6. Use “the bob and weave” against him. Boxers are always taught to “bob and weave.” That’s because they don’t have to worry about kicks. When he “bobs” his head down, blast it with a round kick. He won’t even see it coming, he’s looking at your hands.

Hope that helps! And good luck…

you know since you say that it makes sense. guys i have sparred seemed to guard their body a lot less, but my experience with actual boxers is limited at best. plus i like the body shots so i’ve worked at slippin those in regardless. or at least i did and will be again before long.

this was without gloves, but we learned to keep basically the same guard but to turn your hand so that your palm and outer forarm face your opponent when actually parying or to use both hands togeather. was just a tad slower but added more structure so that you didnt hit yourself in the face.

this wasnt meant as guard to sit and hold either, but more of an oh **** cover up then get out and follow up with strikes of your own type thing. to tell you the truth i never actually used it in sparring, but i have seen it used here and there and it served its purpose.