"Tun To Fau Chum" and tendon

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

When I read pak mei guys’ posts I feel that the concept of “Tun To Fou Chum” allows to generate power (or jing) with biomechanical principle.

In other hand, I am told that the jing is a work of the tendons.

Where is the principle of the jing? In biomechanic or in tendon? Are they complementary? If it is the case, I can easily figure out how to work out the biomechanical stuff (by the sets). But I do not see how do pak mei guy deals with the tendon work out.By a specific exercise? By tao?

I might misunderstood the concept of “Tun To Fou Chum”. That concept and Tendon concept might be the same thing.

So where is the truth?

2

crici?

cricri-

What do you mean by tendon? like the tendon that attaches muscle to bone? If so, then it is based on biomechanics. All movements can and are based on biomechanics from a western physiological point of view. Jing, is a traditional chinese physiological concept and may not be exact correspondence to biomechanical sciences, because of the diffrent interpretations ppl. have. I think jing can most accurately be described in western physiological terms as power. All moves in Bai Mei must have jing in it.

As for using biomechanics and tendon work, i don’t quite understand what u mean by that. If u can explain further maybe i can give a little help.

3

Ging in Bak Mei

It has been a while since I last posted anything on Bak Mei. Cricri, my friend, this is for you.

This solely my understanding of Ging. It is one school of thoughts. Other Bak Mei practitioner may disagree.

To understand Ging, we will have to look at the Ying/Yang Taoist symbol. It is paradox in nature. It appears to be a wave (the fish) yet AT THE SAME TIME it appears as a partical (the dot within the fish). It is the “crack” within the “whip”. The dot is the “Shock Power” (Gang Ging) which is what Bak Mei is known to have.

In Bak Mei, there are 6 External and 4 internal Power.

6 Externals are Teeth, Neck, Waist, Back, Arms, and Legs. As you can see these are more joints related which is why the External stage emphasized on power generates from the opening and closing of joints.

4 Internals (also know as 4 inner shooting power) are Swallow (Tun), Spit (To), Surface (Fao), and Submerge (Chum). These are done by esoteric breathing patterns.

the 6 External are the biomechanic and the Chaisse of an automobil; Whereas, the 4 Internals are, for a lack of a better word, CHI and the engine of the car. They are Ying/Yang. Ying without Yang is meaningless. However, they are only the beginnig and the fundation of Bai Mei. You will have to transform your automoblie into a local motive by learning a higher level of Ging - Jik, Chum, Sing and Gang.

So you see Bak Mei is both internal and external. It is relatively easier to start with the external and move onto other plateaus. This is how Taoism is important to the style.

Hope this helps

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

4

hey mantis108

long time no see,
understandable…

thanks once again for coming through on the knowledge tip.

more fire education pon dem head

5

Thank you

Thank you thank you thank you.

Meltdawn

6

God Bless Us Every One!

It is really great to see you all back..sob This is the best Christmas of all!

Mantis108-… just when I think I’M esoteric, dang…

In my Magic Hermit Crab Style, TTFC is mainly just a descriptive name of The Posture and a general term for all the postural manipulations.
The Powers we use are the eight area force and the 3 border force, along with jerking, pushing, springing and sinking.

As far as these “gings” being in the tendons I think the reference is to the tight skeletal snap at the root of this type of power expression. Of course bones have no action on their own(except on hallowe’en!). It is not in the muscles, it is hindered by tension in the muscles. The sudden and explosive force can hurt the muscles if they get in the way(“my neck hurt for DAYS”). The amazingly bloodless tendons(ging is anaerobic) are incredibly strong. If anyone has seen the Discovery special on cephalopods… Squid especially, seem to be virtually MADE of tendon(mostly polynucleosaccharides or something) and use what 2-legged landthings call “ging” for their movement. Their effortless, lightning fast attack (and retreat), is a ging study to rival anything airbreathers have contrived…

On a side note, we breath normally as if nothing is going on, except for the short bursts in or out adjusting with the diaphragmatic conditions of the postural manipulations…

7

niiice

great breakdown MoQ. really thought provoking. maybe ill add after meditation…i like the way you wrote it as to keep certain critical aspects of the practice hidden while explaining it clearly to those of us who are involved with pak mei.

8

luk ging- is 6 body parts that mantis 108 has mentioned.

fou, chum rise and fall, tun, to swallow and spit are the movements that body and breath combined to create ging.(power) it is not mysterious.

hands and body have to work together to get ging.

luk hup is combined 3 external and 3 internal co-ordinates are used
-external are eyes, hands , feet (nrng,gerk,sau)
-internal are spirit,heart,chi (jing,sun,hay)

all movements have to have YAU KUNG…softness to hardness- the dots inside the circle means thatat any time soft and hard will change, and merge into each other.

combine all these with the -3 body shapes for fighting…?

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

9

So Nice…:slight_smile:

Lovely to see this I hope it stays this way forever.

All very valuable statements, to add some ~ism to the equation.

Interesting way of looking at the Yin Yang symbol. Traditionally It meant that nothing is totally Yang nor Yin rather that there are vary extremes of balances. Thus in Yang there is a notion of Yin and vice versa.

Regarding the 6 Externals it is quite resolute that each those coincide in locking consider …pressing your teeth, locking your neck, then waist and back arms and legs and now you are perfectly tense when they are in harmony. These six Externals are merely the main features that allow the body to function as one in the opening and releasing facet of executing Ging.

A simple method of observing the tendons and their relationships to such a ging concept is to twist the arm from the elbow down in a palm down the palm up then down etc…doing it with muscle tenseness then loose…it becomes clear that the faster more Ging motion arises when muscles are lapsed throughout and even as most people use the muscles to stop the movement via this method the natural anatomical structure prevents overturning so it can vividly be seen that the action is coincidential with the twist action that is effected to the bone structure via the connecting tendons/ligaments which are the elements that phase the muscles to the bone.

Therefore the motion has relied on zero major muscle generation thus making it fast, solid and Jingy …this concept relates to what some call soft jing but to those knowing hard jing it is even more important.

Breathing of the Tun To Fau Chum also facilitate the generation of a power of the whole body where the stop or tensing like stage allows the impact to be sudden and solid. This breathing is conducted in many stages from the simple reverse equal lengths to the pumping to the flowing where breath is naturally flowing though the movements are forceful rapid and seemingly breath inhibited/coordinated/hindered. These levels also determine the advancement of the practitioner and should be ordered in such a way as to promote the natural.

Regards All
I look forward to a bright future

Shi Chan Long
“Master of nothing but self”

10

Here’s my go at it…

My martial arts experience is very short and limited as compared to others I admire on this forum; however, I have studied human anatomy and biomechanics in depth in relation to other sports. The concept of ging can be explained in terms of action and reaction.

First there is the ACTION. Muscles pull in opposition to each other. Tendons attach them to the bones (points of leverage) and ligaments hold those bones together. See Fierce? Even I can state the obvious. For movement to occur, the muscle contracts to place leverage (i.e. open or close a joint).

Since the Magic Hermit Crab Style (well, at least MY pure lineage) is a relatively soft style, the muscles aren’t the reason for power. However, to keep the body centered and balanced the opposite muscle group of the instigating aforementioned group on the OPPOSITE side of the body must contract. OK, just follow me on this, I do know where I’m going.

Secondly, there is REACTION. The ging can only manifest as the byproduct of efficient co-utilization of both sides. In the ACTION part, muscles contract and connective tissue is stretched. The REACTION part is the law of physics, that connective tissue is allowed to return the levered anatomy to neutral and NOT the opposing extended muscle group actively seeking to do so. BUT this can only be so if the body is relaxed. See next paragraph.

So we have the “6 Externals: Teeth, Neck, Waist, Back, Arms, and Legs” mechanically creating the ACTION. And we have the “4 Internals (also know as 4 inner shooting power) are Swallow (Tun), Spit (To), Surface (Fao), and Submerge (Chum)” which direct the ACTION. Only by complete study of these concepts can the martial artist effectively gain his power from the REACTION, which means allowing all of the above principals in practice fulfill their objectives.

Anybody falling for this yet?

Meltdawn

11

Mantis108

Hi,

In your message, you mentioned “learning a higher level of Ging” and goes on listing the 4 keywords.
If it is alright with you, care to further explain them, ie as to what they mean, how are they relate to Tun TOu Fou Chum, and how are the 4 keywords being classify as the higher level of Ging?

Feel free to email me privately if you want to. I believe you have my contact email.
Have a good day friend! Thanks in advance!

Integraman

12

meltdawn nice post!!

i have also studied anatomy, and you explaination was good, although saying how to do it and doing it is another thing.

all muscles have to very elastic like to really produce ging. if you are very solid and do no stretching of the muscles then you will have very little ging. it would be all brute strenght not real ging(power) we are talking about.

2 man exercises, training devices specifically designed to develop correct muscles for punching and pulling etc, with stretching will create more power. you cannot get this just through form work.

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

13

Not tendon???

Ok i think i understand what u mean by thendon crici. I disagree with the concept of tendon genrating jing. Tendons are classified as “Dense Regular Connective Tissue” It consists of mainly collagen fiber and fibroblast (cells which produce collagen). Depended on type of connective tissue it may also contain plasma cells, adipocyctes, macrophages, and a few others. But NOWHERE does it conatain any mitachondria (responsible for cellular respiration) or any type of cells or tissue that can produce movement on its own. Muscles contain lot of mitachondria for ATP(energy) production and are designed to contract. Therefore “jing” is generated in the muscles not the tendons.

“Jing” can better be explained by the diff. types of muscle in the body. there r 3- SLOW OXIDATIVE FIBERS, FAST OXIDATIVE GLYCOLYTIC, FAST GLYCOLYTIC. Fast glycolytic has the largest diametere and produce the most powerful contractions, but they have few blood vessels and few mitachondria, therefore they appear white (like tendons). We all know how fast and powerful a shark is when it attacks its food. Interestingly when u dissect a shark lot of its muscles appear white. I don’t remember the percentage of white to red muscle, but i know it is high. I haven’t studied the squid so i don’t really know its physiology, i do know it is made up of mostly connective type tissue. I think it moves by sucking and shooting water out, like a jet engine does to air.

14

MoQ-

Polynucleosaccharides? = multi nucleous sugar cells?

15

Kull…

Thanks for more in-depth description of the parts to which we refer.

You state that you believe that the muscles create ging, not tendons, correct?

I am stating that the muscles create the ging (ACTION) but are NOT the ging (REACTION). You can use your muscles as levers to push against a wall all day, but you will never manifest ging.

Example of ging:
You have a rubber band around two fingers. One finger is lever and one is fulcrum. You pull the rubber band with one finger (ACTION). Then you release it, letting it fly. What does it do? Ging! REACTION. Now the rubber band has spent it’s energy, and since it is no longer connected to either fulcrum or lever, it cannot create more.

Take the rubber band with two fingers again and pull, but this time do not allow it to fly off the finger when you release. Let it snap back, then pull it apart again. This is an example of the human muscular system. By contracting muscles, you create energy. Allowing the levered anatomy to then do it’s job and snap back is releasing that energy. Since we have opposing muscle groups to flex and extend, we can control and recapture that energy. When your finger stops the rubber band from returning to a neutral state, it is using the opposite set of muscles to what created the action. It is preventing the complete release of energy (controlling and recapturing).

On to the condition of the rubber band. The benefits of stretching are many. To create more elastic connective tissue allows the ging to travel further and faster. However, the muscles creating the ging must also be capable of producing a strong initiative and recapturing quickly. Over-flexibility sacrifices strength, and under-flexibility sacrifices ging.

As FT states (did I just say that out loud?), saying it and doing it are two different things. The mind must be aware of all phases and capable of directing the action. The mind itself has action and reaction: it issues demands for action, receives input from the reaction, and rebounds onto the next scenario.

One big happy circle.

Meltdawn

16

Happy to see you all

Hi everyone,

Good to see you guys. Like my friend MoQ said this indeed going to be a special X’Mas, Even Integraman is back (How are you pal?)

First off, it is not without great hesitation that I responded to CriCri’s post. He’s a great guy and a good friend. Can’t let a friend down.

I also would like to bring the discussion of Bak Mei up a notch which is why I posted the above and to hopefully inspire a more in depth understand of the style. Beside, I love technical discussions.

Let me have a chance to address my friends first:

Kull,

It a pleasure to have your input.

Burn the Wikked,

There is still fire in you.

Meltdawn,

Thank you , Thank you and Thank you

MoQ,

Interest insights as alway, thanks.

ShaolinMaster,

Indeed, it is nice to have valid technical discussion and your input is greatly appreciated.

Integraman,

Direct and to the point as always, my friend. Please see my following post.

Almost forgot…

FT,

Hello, kitty.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

17

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>In your message, you mentioned “learning a higher level of Ging” and goes on listing the 4 keywords.
If it is alright with you, care to further explain them, ie as to what they mean, how are they relate to Tun TOu Fou Chum, and how are the 4 keywords being classify as the higher level of Ging?

Feel free to email me privately if you want to. I believe you have my contact email.
Have a good day friend! Thanks in advance!

Integraman [/quote]

I mention briefly about the 4 Gings because the orginal question was about the Tendon and TTFC. Since you are interested and I am glad that you have a keen mind picking it up, I would hope to further Bak Mei technical discussions.

TTFC is the bread and butter of Bak Mei. The teachings of this style are closely related to one and other. It is like the Ying/Yang symbol that they are integral parts of a larger whole. Understand the 6 Externals and 4 Internals is only the begining meaning you have acquired certian proficiency but really doesn’t mean you are a master of the style. The 4 Gings, which I mentioned, has 2 layers. On a superficial understanding of them would seem that they are merely a discription of types of power. IMHO, they are not just that limited. There are in fact mile stone (stages) of proficiency and manifest in that order also. Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock) are stages of developement.

Jik Ging: As a power, it is direct and forward (this is of ulmost importance). In Bak Mei, one forges ahead never back out. This is evident in the format of forms like Jik Bo, Gau Bo Tyui, Sap bat, etc… The accomplishment of this stage is techniques are clean and crisp. Extended tools never needed to be retrack. It charges on relentlessly.

Chum Ging: As a power, it is “heavy” and sticky. Let said you “Chi Sau” (to borrow a Wing Chun analogy) with someone you can wear the guy out if you have Chum ging in your Tan-Bong-Fook. The achievement of this stage is the Iron body. With the TTFC and other Kungs. They “sank” into your bones (rather developed thick proctective “tendon” so to speak)

Sing Ging: As a power, it is “light” and uprooting. This leaves the opponent feels that he can not root himself properly and that you provide not a hint of leverage for him. At this stage, you have full command of your body even the "outer kidneys (for guys only). You want to drop someone you drop him with great ease.

Gang Ging: You are pulsating with energy. You are awaken. Any angle, any plane, no problem. It “frieghtens” and “shocks” (as in electric current) people; hence, Gang Ging.

All in all, there are always the 6 Exs and 4 Ins. Just that they are transformed into higher plateau.

Anyway, just sharing my limited knowledge.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

18

hi mantis108- good info

very good answers from everyone, it shows that we all seem to know about this topic

i look at fou chum tun to as the motor, the rest of the body is the delivery system. a question for everyone with training FCTT, are you taught dip gwat gung- rib, muscle training when learning these 4(FCTT) OR your not taught this? i think you should at lest understand the rib training, because it can really open up doors for you FCTT skills.

thanks guys! oh and gals

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

19

Mantis 108 - my friend

I really appreciate your response to my questions.
I truly value the willingness of you to share your knowledge not only with me, but with the rest in this open forum.

Integraman

20

Lucky there are SCIENTISTS on the board…

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Fast glycolytic has the largest diametere and produce the most powerful contractions, but they have few blood vessels and few mitachondria, therefore they appear white (like tendons). We all know how fast and powerful a shark is when it attacks its food. Interestingly when u dissect a shark lot of its muscles appear white. I don’t remember the percentage of white to red muscle, but i know it is high. I haven’t studied the squid so i don’t really know its physiology, i do know it is made up of mostly connective type tissue. I think it moves by sucking and shooting water out, like a jet engine does to air. [/quote]

Other than the waterjet propulsion miss, this is pretty much my point. Good to have the help from the young and schooled.

Of course Meltdawn has a good point with the reaction thing. It being all fig.8’s, since there are no straight lines per se, where it starts and ends may not be the point.

The “muscle” idea is fine, except that naturally it’s the tendons that attach them to the bones and we all know we aren’t talking about “strength”.

It’s cool that everyone is their own resident expert. It’s great to have one around the house… moan