"Tun To Fau Chum" and tendon

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

Yes Meltdawn!

You are right! What you describe is what is called the “myotatic stretch reflex” This reflex action is a muscle contraction in response to sufficient froce encountered suddenly that cause it to stretch. it happens to prevent tearing of the muscles. Therefore it is a very powerful contraction, even more so than any consciously generated contraction. The first ppl. to do studies on this as the eastern european countries namely the Russians. They called it shock training, i think.

When we see how a tricep moves in a punch or chop in bai mei it becomes more clear. For all bai mei ppl. iam sure your teacher would say THROW ur punch out and let it snap back naturally, don’t pull it back, then quickly go into next move, right. When the tricep contracts and extends the arm ,as in punching, the force generated by the fast glyco. fibers is so powerful and quick that it snaps the forewarm backwards stretching the tricep, when this happens the “stretch reflex” contracts the muscle to stop the movement, b/c of special fibers called intrafusal fibers, surronded by nerves that sense this could damage the muscles. Since muscles have elastic qualities (as stated by meltdawn) they can store a portion of this energy generated by the stretch reflex and subsequent extention type contraction would be even more powerful. Research has shown that a muscle that is streched b4 a contraction will contract more forcefully and rapidly (Bosco & Komi, 1980 Influence of countermovement amplitude in potentiation of muscle movement). But in order to take advantage of the stored energy the subsequent muscle contraction MUST be smooth and done QUICKLY as possible. Otherwise look like taichi, LOL, just kiddin, no offense to TC ppl.

That is why bai mei moves are “jingy” like spring and done at top speed. Of course the ancients did not analyse this way. They were able to intuitively apply this with terms like Fa jing, qi, nei gung… But i still can’t figure out how other phenomenoms of qi works like bai mei iron shirt, LOL.

22

Oh yes, we can see this action in many bai mei exercises to help improve power and also in modern training sports. We have seen boxers who do push ups quickly and clap while in air. This exercise takes advantage of stretch reflex response.

23

Gung hay fat choi!

Oh, wow, this is great!!!

Kull, thank you for the awesome compliment in putting technical terms and research behind my suppositions.

FT, thanks for acknowledging my gender.

Mantis, you da man. Awwww yeah, baby!
I have more questions:
“Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock)” Do you suggest they be learned in this succession due to advanced concepts?

Since these are ging manifestations of which we speak, they happen in an instant. Describing each in technical terms seems important to clarify my own understanding. Please tell me if I’m on the right track.

jik = linear power (uh, in a circular sense)
chum = downward levered power
sing = upward levered power
gang = wow, this one is tough. Would it be suction power? Sorry, having a hard time… I mean more like a strike aimed to take the opponent’s innards out.

Thank you, you’ve taken my study up a notch. Now I’m going out to practice!

Meltdawn

24

Of the Path

Hi all,

First off, thanks for the support from all of you. Including you, FT. I am impressed that you don’t put the “I knew more than you do” statment. Freshing indeed. Also, it is wonderful to have inhouse scientist on Bak Mei’s side. thumbs up

Integraman,

My pleasure my friend. I often think that secrecy thing put the study of a wonderful art in jeopardy. Many real meaningful stuff lost at great cost to the generations to come. One of the reasons why I decided to post again is that I saw a VCD (thanks to LU) on Gau Bo Tyui from Mainland China. It is sad that it went onto the lost path of WuShu. I was horrified by it. Besides, my friend, I know you would put it to good use.
I believe in lead by example. If I am to learn from others, then it is important to “throw a piece brick to entice a piece jade.” Anyway, thanks for your Kind words and support.

Meltdawn,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>“Jik (straight), Chum (sink), Sing (elevate) and Gang (Shock)” Do you suggest they be learned in this succession due to advanced concepts?[/quote]

As stages, yes (except Gang (enlightenment) can happen any time). Also, they are more the result of the work being done. You might said there is nothing to learn. It would be a natural progression.

As power, you can’t really divide them. As a Taoist, one can hardly fall into extremity.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=“-1”>quote:</font><HR>Since these are ging manifestations of which we speak, they happen in an instant. Describing each in technical terms seems important to clarify my own understanding. Please tell me if I’m on the right track.[/quote]

Again, labeling things are for the intellectual mind not for the intuitive teachings.

[qoute]jik = linear power (uh, in a circular sense)
chum = downward levered power
sing = upward levered power
gang = wow, this one is tough. Would it be suction power? Sorry, having a hard time… I mean more like a strike aimed to take the opponent’s innards out.
[/QUOTE]

Jik articulates directness, economy of motion, etc… like fire and water.

Chum is like lead

Sing is like mercury

Gang is Vajra (thunderbolt, golden pill, or whatever label). Think of it as alternate current. Meditate on the 8 Trigrams primodial arrangement (as a Mandala), it articulates the explosion and inplosion concept. It’s always Ying/Yang.

Side note: I Ching has lost of Taoist wisdom in it. It goes hand in hand with the study of Bak Mei.

Hope this helps

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

25

Dualistic in Nature

Mantis108,

I agree with your POV that the theory and mechanics of power generation is dualistic in nature, meaning that one aspect cannot function mutually exclusive of another aspect. They are complementary in nature. For those who has difficulty to understand Tun Tou Fou Chum, one easier way to understand this at least in my understanding is to that anything that goes up must come down, and anything that goes in must come out.
The understanding of external harmonization and correct physical structure have to take precedent over Tun Tou Fou Chum as inability to grasp and internalize the correct structure implies the failure to fully comprehend Tun Tou Fou Chum.
While I applaud the breaking down of the power generation mechanics into biomechanical manners, it is only partially “correct” in the sense that biomechanical understanding will bring you only to this far, but as advised by our friend, Mantis108 which in my opinion is very true is that the contemplation and meditation of the dualistic principles can shed many confusion and bring about enlightenment.
Hope this helps.

Integraman

26

Friends Further Technical Views

Western Anatomical Features :

TENDONS

  • A Muscle is usually atached to bone/or cartiladge via a tendon.
  • A Tendon is a tough cord of connective tissue composed of closely packed collagen fibres. It is extension of the deep fascia and/or the epimysium surrounding the muscle. It extends into the priosteum that covers the bone.
  • Other than simple being attachments, tendons add length & thickness to muscles, it is extremely important in reducing muscle strain and it adds strength to muscle action.

MUSCLE ACTION

  1. Agonist (Prime Mover) - ie primary muscles responsible for movement.

  2. Antagonist (Anti-Prim. Mover) - Opposes the prim. moverement in a subtle way. Not when contracting but only at the end of a strong contraction to protect the joints [cooperates rather than opposes]

  3. Synergist - together as an in-between joint when a prim. mover passes more than one joint.

  4. Fixator/Postural Muscle - provides a stable base of action for the prim. mover. Usually steadies the proximal end (ie arm) while actual movement is occuring at the distant end (ie hand).

According to the 3 ‘general’ overall jing definitions -
Hard Jing - Visible as tensded muscles

Soft-Hard Jing - Like a Whip , great deal of
force in short span of time, done with the elasticity and counter supporting motion of the tendons, instigated by muscle pulses.

Soft Jing - Less visible less muscle tension very fluid and flowing supported by Qi at the more adv.level.

According to the Chinese view:

‘LI’ Muscles strength/power is derived from bones and muscles.
‘JING’ arises vire tendons, supported by Qi and propagated by pulse like muscle interaction between changes,

Thus as tendons are emphasized muscle fibres can be relatively relaxed thus Qi is more flowing ..more so at the advanced viewpoint. Utilising the tendons as such it is easier to become flexible and more elusive.

To Compare LI-Muscle Pwr & Jing-Pwr.

-Li stagnant, Jing is fluid
-Li is dull, Jing is sharp
-Li is Rigid (Sluggish/Stiff), Jing is concaved(Smooth/agile/alive)
-Li has shape (Can be seen), Jing no shape(needs to be felt)
-Li is Diffuse(spread), jing is concentrated

The more the muscles relax the more Qi can be used, allowing tendon elasticity and propagation to takeover the manifesting control of the motion keeping it flowing in a pulse like fashion.

Root are the legs, Waist is the director, Back is the emitting support of force.

Methods of manifesting Jing rather than Muscle power are by observing some of the following points :

  • Spirit makes action alive
  • Balanced (action & reaction counter balanced)
  • Relaxed Body
  • Whole body as one
  • Like a Pulse
  • Accumulate before generating ( like a bow & arrow…coil body, hollow the chest, arching the back, compressing and coiling like a spring)
  • Make the generating effort as above unseen
  • speed in action, that usually does not exhaust rather the momentum of one jing action to another makes it even faster.
  • Supported by Qi.

Til Later
Shi Chan Long

27

oh…my little somethings

Jik - Straight & Direct, pinpoint and threw without hesitation of inbetweens. Forward surging

Chum - Heavy but maliable

Sing - Flowing but connected, transformable but rising without losing source

Gang - Sudden without motion, from all directions without aim for a direction, direct but non pinpointing, everywhere but from only one source. Like a canon.

Regards
Shi chan Long

28

I would like to thank everyone for your very valuable information. It is very instructive.

What I now understand is that TTFC is a combination of body motion and breathing in order to create and direct a ging. There are several kind of ging.

Regarding the influence of tendons in ging, you explained mechanics of power generation . You mentionned the concept of action/reaction phenomenum, the concept of the eight area force and the 3 border force, the importance of the breathing, the need to have relaxed muscle, the importance of the ribs work (?)…

Most of these concept is related to a biomechanical concept. There is no link with a physical ability of any kind.

Meltdawn and Fierce Tiger talk about a muscle work out and a stretching work. And Fierce Tiger said that form work cannot allow us to have a good ging. So hight level forms have no meaning.And does it mean that Pak Mei kung fu is not in the forms but in specific exercices?

Now let’s assume that I know how to generate a ging. With all these concept I do not see how to have a better ging. So how would I be able to improve my ging? In every single technic ofa sport there is a technic part and a physical ability part. So how can I increase the physical ability for a ging? in stretching?

Nota : Mantis, I would like to thank you for your kindness and friendship for me. I do appreciate it.

29

How to Have better Ging?

Cricri,
Some thought:

  1. Find a teacher who understand these concepts and willing to teach you
  2. Daily practice to acquire the “body knowledge”/make it second nature to you
  3. Further finetune your Ging
  4. Refinement comes under consistent practice and good guidance under knowledgeable teacher
  5. More advance methods to produce more forceful Ging
  6. Correct practice of weaponry at a more advance level also helps.

Of course this is my own opinion.

Integraman

30

hi cricri!!

IMHO i teach form and 2 man exercises that develop the muscles of the legs,waist, ribs,arms and back.
you can also have training devices that are used to direct chi to the correct muscles that are developed for certain punches etc.

you can get ging forms, but like shaolin master said, ging is more felt than expressed which is correct.

high level pak mei is done with soft ging fast. does that make sense???

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

31

wooooow…

This is waaaay toooooo much to assimilate in one sitting. especially on a Sunday night after a full day of work.

Mantis, I see that you answered my questions before I spoke them. Guess I should pay attention to what I read! And my western thinking only gets more in they way… sigh…

I want to reply more, but time (and brain power) permits only one thing: I’ve been reading muscle/tendon changing, marrow/brain washing stuff again. Internal and external are inseperable. While I continue to seek a physical meaning for the answers, I must remember how much my qigong has helped. And I CAN’T physically explain that.

“I was Ghengis Khan… no, not my screen name… I WAS Ghengis Khan.”

32

Hi integraman,

I do agree with you on your thoughts. But I did not want to know how to learn to have a ging.

The purpose of my question was to know, according your opinion, the type of exercice in order to improve your ging. It is like in a lot of sport. Some hight level athlet know how to do their technics (they assililate the technic, they understand all the biomechanich of their technics). But they do some bodybuilder exercice in order to improve their technic. And the exercice motion might be not related to the technics.

For instance fierce tiger said that he is doing some man exercice for developping muscle. So he might think that ging take his source in muscle. Some said that ging is coming from the action/reaction principle of muscle. So I just wanted to know what kind of exercice they are doing to develop that characteristic of the muscle.

That kind of question can also give the different ways to approach Pak Mei style.

It is only my point of view. cheers

33

Hi crici

Mantis108- thanks for compliment but i not scientist, just have BS, lol, working on MS.

Crici-
When some ppl. decribe ging as develope in tendon some say muscle, actiually it is both is correct, depending on point of view taken. In Traditonal chinese physiology, we never differentiate tendon from muscle, the “jin” was responsible for movement and disorders that involve jin have impaired movement of limbs. It is only when modern bioscience was intro did we incorporate tendon as connective tisse, and muscles as movement. So when u ask what exercise develop ging, remain loose and relax never use ur muscle, use ur internal energy liu ging (6 external), 4 nei ging (4internal) this is traditional pt. of view. Develop power=force x speed of muscle contraction, this is modern physiology.
hope this help.

34

oops sorry
power= strength x speed of muscle contraction

35

Thank you note

Hi All,

It is wonderful to see the amount of input that is on this thread. Hope we can have more of these kind of discussion. I really have to thank everyone’s support and kind words. This has been an encourage experience. Thank you all. CriCri thanks for a wonderful thread.

Mantis108

Contraria Sunt Complementa

36

hi kull

thank you for your answer.

So when you said that to develop ging I have to remain loose and relax that I never have to use my muscle, and that I have to use my internal energy It remind me the way how the tai chi chuan ppl are working. So working quick is a non sense at a certain level. right or wrong?

nota : what means “lol”?

37

Can Kull contact me or anyone else explain this…

“power= strength x speed of muscle contraction”

This formula doesn’t really explain things for me at all.

Power (watts) is the rate at which work is done so

Power= force x velocity.

Know this sounds picky but there isn’t really a recognised method for measuring strength that two people can agree on. I wouldn’t equate strength with force as there are many types/definitions of strength…

Can someone clarify further or send me an e-mail to keep this from clogging the thread?

Thanks, R

crm3a@hotmail.com

38

HaHa..

the Kull equation a bit simplistic and truely it cannot be defined as such.

One would more appropriate to state it as a function.

Eg.

Power = f(mass, muscle contraction, bone density, tendon elasticity, Qi flow, Joint cushioning, muscle strength, direction, air resistance, reaction force handling, conditionin…and a million other things)

Each one of those then are a function of something else.
Eg Muscle Contractions = F(whatever cells, chemicals etc…)
Qi flow - F( diet, yuen Qi, Jing, Shen, Time, Month, year etc…)

However these are never definitive…nor correct as such nothing is. They are just methods of explaining at differing levels of comprhension.

The truth of the matter is that attempting to explain concepts scientifically is nice and interesting but only through thorough practice will correct powers and energies arise. Even if you new this goes with that in a million scientific philosophical ways…the one who does that practice correctly will achieve their aim.

Cricri,
TaiQi - From Internal to External
BaiMei - From External to Internal
But balance in end in both…
So different but same…hehehe.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

39

GOOD TIMING AND SPEED= POWER

STRENGTH WILL COME WITH PRACTISE BUT TIMING, SPEED, AND GOOD BODY MACHENICS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

just practise and develop each strike with power(ging), dont worry if it is springy etc, your sifu will show you how to punch correctly!! i hope…

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

40

Thank u guys/girls

R-
Yes ur right that there r many definitions of strength- speed strength, endurance strength,…etc. Bodybuilders, powerlifters, boxers, all exhibit diff. combinations and manifestations of strentgh, speed, endurance.

ShaolinMast.- Thank u, yes that formula isn’t quite true, and it is quite simple. ur right power is a FUNCTION of factors, speed and strength, all things being equal. It is not a multiple.

Fierce Tig.- yes ur right too, timing is very important, especially in activity like martial art, and strength will come with practise, this is what they call neural adaptation to training. But crici was asking about ging, and how to develop.

Crici- what do u mean that working quick is a non-sense? LOL=laugh out loud/lots of laugh, chat room expression. Again when they say don’t use muscle but internal energy, u have to remember they r describing a phenomena through chinese physiology, not contemporary physiology.