Truth about John Keehan (AKA Count Dante)

[QUOTE=cerebus;996070]But interestingly, unlike most charlatans & comic book ninjas, there was actually something to him. 5th degree black belt under Robert Trias, former Midewest director of the USKA, was in both the marine Corps and the Army. Weird, but interesting life…[/QUOTE]

In the end what is his legacy but to be a laughing stock with a bad haircut who never built a system from which others could build themselves.

he is the definition of martial arts loser.

marine corps, army. Well there’s literally millions of guys that have that stuff. It doesn’t mete out as much unless he did something heroic? Did he?

So, what is the legacy here that gives him any value to a modern martial artist?

I mean, he can serve as an example of what not to do I suppose, but then, there are myriad examples of that.

I certainly wouldn’t hold him up as anything more than a weird joke. Completely irrelevant to martial arts in the most real sense of the word. Just like the x-ray glasses he would position himself with on a page he was fake as fake can be.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;996074]

So, what is the legacy here that gives him any value to a modern martial artist?

[/QUOTE]

Ha ha! Here are some quotes from Keehan that got him in trouble with the martial arts community when he first broke these “revelations” back in the '60s.

“In karate, and most Oriental self-defense arts, there is an over-emphasis on form practice, kata (dances), terminology and history, all of which have little to do with the development of effective stree defense- which should be the goal of the students.”

“The bulk of karate, kenpo, and gung-fu stances are too strict or tensed, so as to restrict smooth and fast movements… a boxer who uses a much more natural stance has much better footwork…”

“…most fistic arts are too robotic appearing and unrealistic. Most Japanese karateists remind one of the old time boxers with their crude stumbling movements. I believe the main reason for this is due to the fact that there is no professional karate (by this I mean full-contact knock-out karate); the participants are too wrapped up in style rather than effectiveness.”

“Another serious fault in the present-day karate movements is the fact that the self-defense forms or techniques practiced are practically non-moving and performed from near-stationary positions. It is quite easy to hit or defend against a stationary target or an attacker who attacks with one punch and stops.”

“The striking effectiveness of exponents of gung-fu, karate, tai chi chuan, etc, is highly overexaggerated… If the striking techniques of these systems were so effective I am quite sure the many thousands of professional boxers throughout the world would be using these techniques, since fighting happens to be their business. There is no doubt that a boxer can easily out-punch a karateist.”

And much, much more. Sounds obvious these days, right? But when Keehan publicly printed these comments and others, people believed in the “one-strike kill”, that these arts were “too deadly” for contact competition. Keehan was the first to call Bullsh!t on such ideas and to promote realistic training. When he held his first no-holds-barred tournament in 1967, the martial arts community was outraged, positive that people would be killed or crippled. In fact, no one was even injured very badly, but Keehan had p!ssed off too many people by then, so he reveled in his role as an outcast.

Interesting how big the whole "no-holds-barred’ tournament scene has become since then, eh? :stuck_out_tongue:

And before anyone gets too serious or bent out of shape about this subject (amazing how this guy riles people up even now), I didn’t write this book to glorify Keehan. I wrote it because, like it or not, he’s a part of American pop culture and a bigger part of US martial arts history than many people want to admit.

There’s still discussion about him today, but there’s also alot of BS out there. I wrote this mainly to set some facts straight and give a more balanced view of the man, neither demonizing nor glorifying him, just showing him to have been as human as anyone (in spite of his theatrics).

:wink:

[QUOTE=cerebus;996122]Ha ha! Here are some quotes from Keehan that got him in trouble with the martial arts community when he first broke these “revelations” back in the '60s.

“In karate, and most Oriental self-defense arts, there is an over-emphasis on form practice, kata (dances), terminology and history, all of which have little to do with the development of effective stree defense- which should be the goal of the students.”

“The bulk of karate, kenpo, and gung-fu stances are too strict or tensed, so as to restrict smooth and fast movements… a boxer who uses a much more natural stance has much better footwork…”

“…most fistic arts are too robotic appearing and unrealistic. Most Japanese karateists remind one of the old time boxers with their crude stumbling movements. I believe the main reason for this is due to the fact that there is no professional karate (by this I mean full-contact knock-out karate); the participants are too wrapped up in style rather than effectiveness.”

“Another serious fault in the present-day karate movements is the fact that the self-defense forms or techniques practiced are practically non-moving and performed from near-stationary positions. It is quite easy to hit or defend against a stationary target or an attacker who attacks with one punch and stops.”

“The striking effectiveness of exponents of gung-fu, karate, tai chi chuan, etc, is highly overexaggerated… If the striking techniques of these systems were so effective I am quite sure the many thousands of professional boxers throughout the world would be using these techniques, since fighting happens to be their business. There is no doubt that a boxer can easily out-punch a karateist.”

And much, much more. Sounds obvious these days, right? But when Keehan publicly printed these comments and others, people believed in the “one-strike kill”, that these arts were “too deadly” for contact competition. Keehan was the first to call Bullsh!t on such ideas and to promote realistic training. When he held his first no-holds-barred tournament in 1967, the martial arts community was outraged, positive that people would be killed or crippled. In fact, no one was even injured very badly, but Keehan had p!ssed off too many people by then, so he reveled in his role as an outcast.

Interesting how big the whole "no-holds-barred’ tournament scene has become since then, eh? :p[/QUOTE]

impromptu scuffle ups weer happening long before beardbangstachefro guy came along. and he said nothing new. Mas Oyama had addressed pretty much everything you quoted him as saying for instance. Now that guy po’d a lot of karate people. lol

also, I don’t think beardbangsstachefro guy had anything at all to do with the popularity of nhb/ufc type stuff at all. he was completely forgotten by the time that started getting organized and quite frankly, Tank abbot and the gracies brought that about more than anyone else. lol

the guy is barely a foonote in regards to real martial arts and especially in context to todays martial arts which are 6 bodies and two sets of head and shoulders above everything this guy ever did…which was mostly selling nonsense on the back of comic books and running a little dojo and getting into a fight.

He is unknown for any contributions he might have made because it’s obvious what his focus was:

a)his hair

b) his tight ass bell bottoms

c) having people see him in teh same light as bruce lee

Not too mention, his biggest fan and lackey is that ass wipe ashida kim. more laughable nonsense.

Well there ya go. Exactly the reason I wrote this book. Because what you wrote there is what most people (clearly including yourself) think they “know” about Keehan. This book gets past the surface & exposes the truth that you and many others would never know otherwise. I do find it amazing though how, especially as regards Keehan, many people prefer to be ignorant and believe a distorted image rather than to have facts or truth.

And as for ashida kim, well no one can help who tries to hijack their name for their own purposes after they’re dead. Kim just tried to use Keehan’s notoriety to sell his own BS.

[QUOTE=cerebus;996146]Well there ya go. Exactly the reason I wrote this book. Because what you wrote there is what most people (clearly including yourself) think they “know” about Keehan. This book gets past the surface & exposes the truth that you and many others would never know otherwise. I do find it amazing though how, especially as regards Keehan, many people prefer to be ignorant and believe a distorted image rather than to have facts or truth.

And as for ashida kim, well no one can help who tries to hijack their name for their own purposes after they’re dead. Kim just tried to use Keehan’s notoriety to sell his own BS.[/QUOTE]

I’m sure you’ll find an audience. :stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;996160]I’m sure you’ll find an audience. :p[/QUOTE]

Time will tell. Hey Gene! You should be selling this through your company! :smiley:

[QUOTE=cerebus;996165]Time will tell. Hey Gene! You should be selling this through your company! :D[/QUOTE]

yes, lets hope it all doesn’t boil down to dogs and lemon juice right. :wink: :smiley:

lol

ah the great karate hair dresser!

he was quite a interesting character :smiley:

LOL! I love the comments I’m getting on Bullshido! :smiley:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=94351

There should be some sort of special award for being lectured by a Bullshido member that you should have expected trouble from the way you said something.

Does it feel like Bobby Brown, Whitney Houston, and Rick James took you aside and said, “Look man, you gotta quit the cocaine”?

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;996283]There should be some sort of special award for being lectured by a Bullshido member that you should have expecteded trouble from the way you said something.

Does it feel like Bobby Brown, Whitney Houston, and Rick James took you aside and said, “Look man, you gotta quit the cocaine”?[/QUOTE]

LOL! It’s all good. As long as it has people talking about it (good or bad) well, that’s cool by me… :stuck_out_tongue:

Well, it sounds interesting, there were a lot of legends about Dante when I was a kid training in Chicago, and a lot of others doing the dojo busting as well.

But really, I hope you’re at least secretly taking pride in the stiff lecture you received. It’ll just be between you and me.:smiley:

lol now i remember why i stopped going to bullshido…

sounds like a good read. i’ll make sure and get around to picking it up at some point. is this only available through amazon or could i find it at my local gigantic book store?

Thanks! Yeah, it’s really fascinating the reaction that this book is creating. In fact, someone on Bullshido had mentioned that the Amazon ranking at the time he checked it out (22,000) was impressive for it. I just checked the ranking again and it’s now up to 10,000. Considering the millions of books which Amazon sells, that’s pretty mind-boggling…

lol well i made my first post on bullshido in your thread:D

Greetings,

I would not call dante a Bruce Lee wannabe. By the way, Bruce choreographed the “Dance of Death” into the Game of Death. It was the empty hand sequence used by Dan inosanto. I have not compared to two, but I suspect that they have one person in common: the late Ed Parker. Some say that Keehan got that form from Parker and took it to the east coast. And in time it may come to light one day that many of those Lee-isms that we all are now so familiar with came from the mind of Ed Parker.

Good Luck with the book.

mickey

Thanks. Yes, I do also have some information on the Count Dante/ Ed Parker connection in the book. There were alot of different connections that people these days do not know about. The martial arts world in the US was MUCH smaller back then…

[QUOTE=cerebus;996602]Thanks. Yes, I do also have some information on the Count Dante/ Ed Parker connection in the book. There were alot of different connections that people these days do not know about. The martial arts world in the US was MUCH smaller back then…[/QUOTE]

no doubt it was just as insane though. lol

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;996604]no doubt it was just as insane though. lol[/QUOTE]

No question there. The only people doing martial arts in those days (well, especially the late 50s into the 60s) were soldiers, cops, and azz-kickers of various sorts. One thing to be said in favor of that is that there weren’t too many “paper tigers” around since anyone who put up a sign advertising martial arts instruction pretty much expected to have to deal with off-the-street challenge fights, and the cops were basically like “Hey, you’re a Karate expert, you should be able to defend yourself…”.