Former WBC official David Martinez ranks the top 10 heavyweights of all time:
i’m one of those folks that thinks jack johnson was highly overrated…
he lost to choynski and Hank Griffen (another black fighter) - he never did beat Griffen.
My list would probably look like:
- Joe Louis
- Mohammed Ali
- Jack Dempsey
- Rocky Marciano
- Jim Jeffries
After the top 5 it gets difficult.
I’ll discuss why, by era…
old timers (pre dempsey)
We’ve got Jack Johnson, John L Sullivan, Corbett, Sam Langford, and Fitzsimmons to choose from.
Like I said, Johnson was over rated; he refused to fight just as many black fighters as Jeffries did once he became champion.
John L Sullivan got KOed by Corbett and his 38-1-1 record had a lot of people with less than 10 fights. He did a lot to popularize the sport and was one of the last great holdovers from the bareknuckle era.
Corbett is hard for me to put on this list. His influence on the science of boxing was huge, as was his KO of sullivan, but he was KOed by Fitzsimmons in a loss that you can see on youtube. That footage shows a REALLY ugly style.
Fitzsimmons held titles in 3 weight classes and KOed Corbett. He packed one heckuva punch; but he had far from a perfect record outside of that - KOed 7 times in his career.
Sam Langford had a career that lasted 24 years and 314 fights; he was like Fitzsimmons in that he was tiny for a heavyweight but he could bang with the big boys Jack Johnson outweighed him by 30lbs in their fight. Like some of the other fighters, he has a few blemishes on his record.
pre-ali
Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott
Floyd was a great statesman for boxing for decades after his retirement. Really standup guy with a good punch. Just not strong enough to make the list i feel.
Sonny Liston was the mike tyson of his day; people feared the name and didn’t want to say it too loud. He KOed people with his jab. His legacy is hurt by the Ali losses and how he handled himself. Did he take a dive? We’ll never know.
Ezzard Charles was a good light heavyweight, but not that great a heavyweight. Marciano broke him as a fighter. Had that fight not have happened we might’ve seen more greatness from the guy.
Jersey Joe Wallcott went 2 and 2 with Ezzard Charles. They say he was robbed in a decision loss to Joe louis, but got KOed by him later. Like some other fighters he’s got kind of a spotty record outside of the big fights. His style was influential to people like Ali.
The 70s
George Foreman, Joe Frazier
The 70s heavyweight division was one of the most stacked of all time, you had great guys like Shavers, Quarry, Norton, Young, Chuvalo, etc, etc etc.
Foreman and Frazier where the 2 brightest stars of this era after Ali.
Foreman definitely deserves to be on this list, even with his spotty record, for being so dominant in his first run as champ and coming back after a 10 year lay off to become champ again 2 months shy of his 46th birthday.
Joe Frazier would have an easier time making this list if he was of a different era. He was pretty dominant over all the other heavyweights save Ali and Foreman; even fighting most of his career blind in one eye.
The 80s
Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes had a great jab and almost broke Marciano’s record for number of wins as an undefeated fighter. He suffers because he wasn’t as likable (or exciting) as Ali and his era was not as strong as that of the early 70s.
Mike Tyson was the KO kid until running up against Buster Douglas that night in Japan. If he’d navigated the second half of his career anywhere near as well as he had the first class, he’d easily make the list. As it is, outside of his prime he’s not much of a threat.
The 90s
Evander Holyfield, Lennox Lewis
Evander fought a lot of big fights and was a true warrior - often giving up a lot of weight in fights. Unfortunately I’m not sure he makes the list as he was proven pretty beatable in the later half of his career.
Lennox Lewis deserves the second half of the list. Not as charismatic or exciting (sometimes) as other champs, he dominated his division - beating all the fighters that beat him. His legacy is hurt by the fact that he went out on a sour note with the klitschko fight.
2000s
The Klitschko brothers.
I can’t really think of anyone else. It’s been a pretty weak era. Ike Ibeabuchi might’ve made it exciting had he not flipped out and become a criminal. Other than that who else? Sam Peter?
[QUOTE=SevenStar;857314]Former WBC official David Martinez ranks the top 10 heavyweights of all time:
http://dmboxing.com/WordPress/?p=14[/QUOTE]
It pains me not to see Mike in that list.
He was the youngest ever HW champion and if emotional, managerial and criminal problem has not risen, he would have dominate boxing till he retired.
His ability to find the target with both hands and his sheer power and footwork should have put him on the list.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;857343]It pains me not to see Mike in that list.
He was the youngest ever HW champion and if emotional, managerial and criminal problem has not risen, he would have dominate boxing till he retired.
His ability to find the target with both hands and his sheer power and footwork should have put him on the list.[/QUOTE]
i told thsi to a boxing guy. he said mike tyson dodged a lot of good fights while i his prime and only fought less skilled people.
i think rocky marciano should be 1. only lost 1 time, and that was before he went pro.
[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;857379]i told thsi to a boxing guy. he said mike tyson dodged a lot of good fights while i his prime and only fought less skilled people.
i think rocky marciano should be 1. only lost 1 time, and that was before he went pro.[/QUOTE]
Who did he dodge?
Certainly he didn’t have fighters of the caliber that Ali fought, but neither did Marciano or Holmes.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;857383]Who did he dodge?
Certainly he didn’t have fighters of the caliber that Ali fought, but neither did Marciano or Holmes.[/QUOTE]
fair nuff.
its like brett hart, he was the best there was there is and ever was. yet there was no one good when he was around. ok wrestling is fake.
[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;857388]fair nuff.
its like brett hart, he was the best there was there is and ever was. yet there was no one good when he was around. ok wrestling is fake.[/QUOTE]
Fake?
NNNOOOOOOO !!!
Actually, Brett could own the vast majority of people out there in pro fighting, he old man was one tough SOB.
The thing I find interesting is that there hasn’t been a decent heavyweight in about the last 20 years.
some reasons are:
The corruption in the sport
the way Mike Tyson imploded
More sports choices for talented kids
Wrestling:
I find professional wrestling very interesting. From what I can tell it’s an industry that tears people to bits both mentally and physically. I would not want to have anything to do with it. Someone like Ric Flair as just amazing. The guy must be made or iron to be doing what he is doing at 60. Not to mention the BS he’s put up with for the last 40 years.
Quite so.
Most former Pro wrestlers ( and pro athletes in general) tend to have so much wear and tear that their health suffers quite a bit.
Of course others are just fine.
Lennox Lewis was actually pretty skilled.
He owned mike tyson back in Tyson’s mythical “prime” (that seemed to vanish overnight).
When they were both in their teens, they sparred.
Tyson first got the jump on LL, trying to kill 'im right off the bat.
Once LL adjusted to the increased intensity, the story goes that he beat the p!ss out of Tyson.
This is Cus D’amato Tyson btw.
LL didn’t train for fights because he basically got bored of boxing.
Evander gave him a bit of a challenge, but was fading more with each fight.
Oliver McCall caught him and when he tried to rematch McCall broke down in the ring.
Ibeabuchi imploded before they could ever meet.
Rahman caught him on a lazy and was destroyed in the rematch.
He exploited a huge hole in Tua’s game and cruised to an easy (albeit boring) win in that fight.
He absolutely destroyed Botha, Grant, Briggs, Golotta, Tyrell Biggs, Razor Ruddock…
He doesn’t get higher ratings because of his personality and getting caught from training lazy (though he avenged those fights).
Tyson feasted on an overrated heavyweight division in the 80s.
These were the young kids that were gifted with relatively easy wins over the faded greats of the 70s.
Guys like Trevor Berbick had no business being champion - beating a completely shot Ali.
Michael Spinks was a pretty good fighter, but way small for a heavyweight, many feel he was beaten twice by Holmes, and in the Tyson fight he completely folded mentally.
Tyson was lucky to catch Holmes coming back off a 2 year, “do absolutely no training”, retirement/layoff by holmes. Look at Holmes before and after Tyson- if he’d taken a few warmup fights before that night, it would’ve been a totally different outcome.
Don’t get me wrong, Kid Dynamite was one of my favorite all time fighters to watch in his prime; but coming to the ring prepared is part of the tools you bring to a fight and a lot of people make excuses for mike’s off nights. I don’t think he was unbeatable as they say; because certain styles are a bad matchup for his peekaboo style. Look at what prime Foreman did to prime Joe Frazier (a hall of fame fighter) and imagine that happening to mike.
Foreman was a baaaaad dude at any time in his career. I’m trying to find vintage footage of a prime foreman pushing trucks up hill as part of his training; but haven’t been able to.
Tyson would also score higher if he’d ever avenged his buster douglas loss.
PUTTING ANYONE BEFORE ALI IS SIMPLE POMPOUS ASS-HATTERY.
He was the greatest.
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;857428]Lennox Lewis was actually pretty skilled.
He owned mike tyson back in Tyson’s mythical “prime” (that seemed to vanish overnight).
When they were both in their teens, they sparred.
Tyson first got the jump on LL, trying to kill 'im right off the bat.
Once LL adjusted to the increased intensity, the story goes that he beat the p!ss out of Tyson.
This is Cus D’amato Tyson btw.
LL didn’t train for fights because he basically got bored of boxing.
Evander gave him a bit of a challenge, but was fading more with each fight.
Oliver McCall caught him and when he tried to rematch McCall broke down in the ring.
Ibeabuchi imploded before they could ever meet.
Rahman caught him on a lazy and was destroyed in the rematch.
He exploited a huge hole in Tua’s game and cruised to an easy (albeit boring) win in that fight.
He absolutely destroyed Botha, Grant, Briggs, Golotta, Tyrell Biggs, Razor Ruddock…
He doesn’t get higher ratings because of his personality and getting caught from training lazy (though he avenged those fights).
Tyson feasted on an overrated heavyweight division in the 80s.
These were the young kids that were gifted with relatively easy wins over the faded greats of the 70s.
Guys like Trevor Berbick had no business being champion - beating a completely shot Ali.
Michael Spinks was a pretty good fighter, but way small for a heavyweight, many feel he was beaten twice by Holmes, and in the Tyson fight he completely folded mentally.
Tyson was lucky to catch Holmes coming back off a 2 year, “do absolutely no training”, retirement/layoff by holmes. Look at Holmes before and after Tyson- if he’d taken a few warmup fights before that night, it would’ve been a totally different outcome.
Don’t get me wrong, Kid Dynamite was one of my favorite all time fighters to watch in his prime; but coming to the ring prepared is part of the tools you bring to a fight and a lot of people make excuses for mike’s off nights. I don’t think he was unbeatable as they say; because certain styles are a bad matchup for his peekaboo style. Look at what prime Foreman did to prime Joe Frazier (a hall of fame fighter) and imagine that happening to mike.
Foreman was a baaaaad dude at any time in his career. I’m trying to find vintage footage of a prime foreman pushing trucks up hill as part of his training; but haven’t been able to.
Tyson would also score higher if he’d ever avenged his buster douglas loss.[/QUOTE]
Never heard of that sparring match, I 'll have to ask Lennox next time I see him.
If we are to look at each fighters competition, then Ali would be the best, period.
He had the best competition and fought and beat them.
No one else had to face the likes of who he faced.
here we go…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3SG91KvXg
Look at Jersey Joe Walcott.
Walcott had a style very similar to Ali.
Walcott and Louis trained together for a bit.
Louis beat Walcott twice.
Now walcott was only 6’0 so that might be a factor, but Joe louis wasn’t so dead in the water as ali said…
Look how Ali talked about Frasier, and we all know how that fight turned out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoPTogbAyPM
Joyce Carol Oates sure likes Tyson. I figured he’d be up there.
What about Mr. T? Or Tommy Gunns?
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;857462]here we go…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy3SG91KvXg
Look at Jersey Joe Walcott.
Walcott had a style very similar to Ali.
Walcott and Louis trained together for a bit.
Louis beat Walcott twice.
Now walcott was only 6’0 so that might be a factor, but Joe louis wasn’t so dead in the water as ali said…
Look how Ali talked about Frasier, and we all know how that fight turned out…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoPTogbAyPM[/QUOTE]
LMAO !!
Sweet videos, great find dude.
This kinda talks about what i was saying earlier; but the version i was quoting was more from Lenox Lewis’ camp AFTER the Tyson-Lewis fight. The article was written beforehand to hype the fight and that’s I think why it’s got some pro-Tyson statements in it.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/stories/2002-06-03-tyson-lewis.htm
[QUOTE=Pork Chop;857495]This kinda talks about what i was saying earlier; but the version i was quoting was more from Lenox Lewis’ camp AFTER the Tyson-Lewis fight. The article was written beforehand to hype the fight and that’s I think why it’s got some pro-Tyson statements in it.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/boxing/stories/2002-06-03-tyson-lewis.htm[/QUOTE]
When I first met Lennox, just before the 88 Olympics we chatted a bit and he was very cool, I met him again later, probably early 90’s and we had a chance to speak about Tyson, simple because he said I had a similar style and that,if I recall correctly, I would have the same problems that Mike had,namely people like him, longer reach and with power.
I recall asking him if they fought and he said no, just sparred and that Mike packed quite the wallop even as a kid.
My top picks would be:
Ali
Spinks
Holmes
Foreman
Tyson (because of his quick knockout, usually in the first 30 seconds of his fights)
For lighter weight divisions I would say my favorites are:
Roberto Duran
Marvalous Marvin Hagler
Chevez
Sugar Ray Leonard
Lewis
Marciano
Ali
Frazier
Tyson
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman
[QUOTE=KFNOOB;857585]Lewis
Marciano
Ali
Frazier
Tyson
Holyfield
Holmes
Foreman[/QUOTE]
You put Lewis ahead of all those guys ??