It seems like one of the greatest obstacles in IMA is to overcome the use of the hip to generate power. Especially people coming from an EMA background.
I think that one reason their are so many bad Yang stylists (I mean phony) out there is that the stances are more similar to Shaolin stances so that you can fake your power a little bit more. (BTW, I’m not in anyway saying which style is better or worse.)
Anyone have any comments on this? Excercises to practice to get around using the hip?
I think what the perspective people from GM Feng/Yang Yang’s lineage would say is more qigong practice, followed by silk reeling (and of course form and push hands, but that’s a given).
I’ve noticed a substantial difference between people who do regular wuji practice and sitting meditation (upto 2 hours/day total) and silk reeling vs. those who do not.
Yang Yang said that in his day, to prove to GM Feng that you were worthy to learn Taiji seriously under him, you had to do stadning wuji 2 hours every day for a year.
My teacher who studied with T.T. Liang said that Master Liang was a business man, and used to do Crane stance with arms in embracing the one posture for an hour when he had a limmited amount of time to practice his t’ai chi.
As for using the hips, it takes using the T’ai Chi Principles on a regular basis. Keeping the knee pointed outwards and opening that crease at the hip. Also sung exercises help where a person pushes on you and you release into that push.
I just started learning chen tai chi about a few weeks ago. Don’t really know much about it yet, but I thought that you were suppose to use the hips to generate power. I thought that using the hips to generate power was one of those things that was common in all martial arts.
If your not suppose to use the hips to generate power, then how does tai chi generate power?
Yeah, I’m a little confused with what you mean by hips. In Ba Gua and most other internal arts we strive to relax and loosen all of the joints in the body, then connect them for maximum speed and power generation.
From your description it sounds as if you are suggesting that one NOT use his hips in connection with the rest of the body, in essence “freezing” them. I’m not sure that this can be accomplished, but even if it could, I’m sure you would agree that the results would be less than satisfactory.
The muscles around the hips and pelvis are notoriously difficult to learn to relax and use properly, but doing this will make your “ground connection” (sorry, I’m having to invent some terms as I go!) much more stable. Alot of people tend to turn Kou Bu and Bai Bu steps from the knee when they’re starting out, for example, but the ideal situation is to connect and make the turn from the hip.
Ba Gua’s spiraling movements must travel from the ground through the hips for proper power generation. Hsing I’s “drilling fist” also utilizes this principle (actually all of the fists do, but Tzuann Chuan is the most obvious). “Part Wild Horses Mane”, “Peng, Li, Ji, Ahn” for Taiji. I think you get the picture.
Perhaps you could take another stab at describing what you mean? Or perhaps your Laoshr will have answers?
i think what Fu Pow says that external arts use the hips the main source of power. For example, in most waijia, when you punch, you twist your hips to generate the power behind the punch. Of course, I don’t think he means to completely forget about the hip in the internal arts, just don’t generate power from the hip when doing a punch or something. One example is the hidden hand punch from the Chen form. You definately don’t twist your hips when you’re trying to fajing that punch. You sink, store then explode, (somewhere around here, the punch comes out) then sink. (or something like that). OKay, your hips DO twist, but that should be the side effect of your power transfering, no to transfer the power.
So I think what he’s asking is how not to use the hips to generate most of the power. I too had trouble with this. When I used to do short power, I would twist my hips to give it a little more power. Teacher said wrong. And I just made a mental effort not to do that.
Exercises? Well ummm, I can’t really think of any. Maybe do the movement really really slow so you make sure you don’t use the hip.
In EMA especially karate they are taught to “use the hip” to the unenlightened what this looks like is simply using one side of the hip to push the punch forward, because they don’t elaborate any further you’ll see entire schools using this method but more power is gleaned from using the legs, the etc.
What they really mean is use the gua. use the whole body. Most karate just lacks the tools in explaining it. You’ll see the ocasional karateka using the whole body to generate power but these are just the “naturals” or the ones with good teachers. but often many will have bad habits which reduce the quality of their alignment, e.g. a stupidly unnatural spine alignment.
Too often prople over-use the hips.. they tend to twist the hips-knees connection to the point that their foundation collapses.. the knees turn in, neutralizing their own power.. As the frame snaps into alignment, the ankles, knees and hips set-up the foundation while the waist, torso, shoulders and arms relax and whip the application toward its “intention”..
As an exercise, do your silk-reeling exercises with the hips fixed, rotating only the waist and above.. this also offers the maximum internal massage (the twisting of the torso massages internal organs).. When rotating the lower Dantien keep the horizontal circles of the knees to 3 inches or less, and the vertical movement of the hip-points at 2 inches or less, let the waist/abdominal connection work the Dantien circles..
Remember, the foundation supports the application.. once the application reaches its completion the foundation relaxes back into the rhythm of the process.. in practice the foundation is fixed for a very short time, less than a second.. in-fact, at the highest levels, we are like springs and the appearance of “fixed” is just the point of transition from yang to yin.. there is continual internal motion as the direction changes.. When using the eight section whip, at its full extension, the whip appears to be solid, but the energies that move it are changing direction and we all know that the appearance of a solid whip is a momentary illusion (but, there is no illusion to its maximum generated power)..
Just another perspective from the Far-side.. Be well..
any physical therapist will tell you not to turn your waist as we do in IMA becuse it will cause back problems. The pelvis/torso is what you are using especially in Chen when you shift weight and turn. Remember whole body movement…and that’s my two cents.
Thanks for all the replies. What I’m getting at is the hip transferring power vs. the dan tien (aka the waist) transferring power. I think that this is one of the major things that defines internal martial arts. In both internal and external MAs the power originates from the ground but in Shaolin derived MA’s the power is transfered through turning or snapping the hip. In internal MA’s the hip barely moves and the waist drives the power. I understand the idea but I have trouble getting it to work.
Ok, but then any power that comes from the ground must be transferred through the hips somewhere along the line. I think what you’re getting at is not using the hips too much, not completely ignoring them..?
Ok, but then any power that comes from the ground must be transferred through the hips somewhere along the line.
I don’t think that this is correct. In external arts, yes. In internal arts, no. It’s not that the hips don’t move, but hips don’t transfer the power, this is reserved for the waist. The area slightly above the hip.
I can’t. Read my original post. I’m trying to figure out how this works. All I know that is I have read and heard from my own teacher that I cannot use my hip in the same way that I do in the external arts. The hip may move but it doesn’t transfer power in the same way, I think it has to do with the “kua” staying relaxed.
Your original post implies that shaolin arts “fake” their power by using the hips. In real shaolin, the waist is more important than the hips. While I agree that internal arts power is slightly different, I disagree with your generalization of the “external” arts.
Actually I wasn’t stating that at all. I was making the assumption that the readers already knew that internal and external arts have different ways of generating power. I never made any claim as to which one is better only that they are different.
There are Yang style Taiji (as well as Chen stylists) who fake understanding of the internal method of power generation by using the external method. I believe that this is much easier to do in the Yang style then the Chen style because the footwork is closer to external arts like Shaolin in Yang style.
Now, let me get this straight. You propose that there is no difference in how power is generated?