Of course it’s different. Read my last post.
I just think that your generalization of shaolin using the hips too much is incorrect. The waist is very important in shaolin.
Personally, I think Yang footwork is very different from shaolin. Chen postures are more similar to shaolin. But hey, that’s just me.
I just think that your generalization of shaolin using the hips too much is incorrect.
I have come to the conclusion that you don’t know how to read.
I never said that anywhere.
Good luck with your illiteracy…
Fu POw you are rude. You are also wrong. Power from the ground dosen’t magically jump from the ground to the waist. It travels through the legs AND hips before it gets to the waist. I thought you were posing genuine questions because you wanted to learn something, but dropping insults when someone disagrees with you shows that your mind is not open (just like your hip joints). Good luck with your trolling.
hehe.
Anyway, I’m not here to get in a squabble. I’d rather invest my time in real life. We can disagree and leave it at that, or we can discuss. Either way I don’t care.
But you said, and I quote, “In both internal and external MAs the power originates from the ground but in Shaolin derived MA’s the power is transfered through turning or snapping the hip. In internal MA’s the hip barely moves and the waist drives the power.”
I disagree with that. I’m not afraid of being wrong, but I would prefer an intelligent conversation instead of name calling.
Oops …
…sorry about that Denali…that was uncalled for…sometimes I can be rather moody and I have a silver tongue…Apparently, something didn’t work quite right with the forum.
I read your post and responded when I was in a bad mood and after a few minutes I reconsidered my post and erased it . For some reason it didn’t get erased. Perhaps I closed my browser before the action could take place.
Anyways, again sorry. Obviously you know how to read.
The point I was trying to make is that I never stated that the Shaolin uses the hip “too much.” Only that the power generation is different and the power transfers differently.
I study CLF and Chen Taiji and I am constantly reprimanded by my Taiji teacher for using the hip when I should be using the waist. That is what originally spurred my post.
You shouldn’t be so touchy about practicing an external style (Hung Ga right?) it is just a different way of doing things.
After reading the intro to Tim Cartmell’s Effortless combat throws I have a new outlook on mechanics.
Imagine that the body is composed of several large springs the spine, the chest, the legs and the arms. These are the 5 bows they talk about in Taiji. Elastic energy can be stored in the springs. The goal in Taiji is maintain the spring.
Located in the center of the springs is a heavy sphere aka the Dan Tien .
The springs are always under the compression of gravity and the heavy ball dictates where the line of gravity falls. Gravity does not provide much in the way of compression, however, the springs can also be under external compression as in from an opponent.
In order to generate power in Taiji the spring must become compressed and then snap back. This is under the control of the Dan Tien which directs the force into the spring and then controls where and when it snaps back.
If the body becomes too slack it is like the spring being made of something non-elastic like rope. It won’t compress, it will simply collapse. If the body becomes too rigid it is like the springs becoming too stiff it will never compress.
This is of course and over simplification there are other factors to consider like bones, peripheral muscle, breathing, chi etc. But perhaps a good starting point?
No worries Fu-Pow. Nothing personal..
Yes I do study Hung Gar mostly, but I have been learning some Yang taiji as well for the past 9 months or so. I definitely agree that the power is transferred differently, the movement is often quite different, but not always. I’m just saying that the waist is also very important in shaolin. Some internal artists talk like the waist is an internal-only concept.
Anyway, I find that the footwork and the different weighting in taiji stances seem to force you to use the waist differently. In taiji, it seems that you sometimes step out first and then use the waist after your hips are already aligned. While in shaolin the hips and waist sometimes turn at the same time.. It all depends on the movement and stance though. .
Maybe the difference isn’t actually in using the hips or the waist, it’s more about how you link them together. Just a thought..
Ok…I know what he’s saying…let me try to translate this
I used to be perplexed by this as well.
Lets use an x and y axis. Y represents the legs pushing up and down. x represents the waist (hits, kwa) turning back and forth.
Then you have the forward movement of the whole body.
I beleive Fu Pow is saying that in Internal arts you are going back and forth thinking of the dan tien as it lies vertically on the y axis.
He seems to beleive that by turning on the x axis you are cheating.
I believe all three components are needed for the internals. Some methods of power generatoin (perhaps ones Fu Pow has been exposed to) require a different ratio of x and y (waist to legs)
For balanced hitting you need at least some of the other one. Just twising karate style is ok, but why neglect the legs? Just going at an upward angle into the bow stance is also lacking.
I think most of us recognized what he was trying to say, but he is still incorrect. The only reason I even bothered arguing with him was that I didn’t want him passing on his misinterpretation of whatever his teacher showed him to the inexperienced students. If he wants to practice incorrectly and argue with his seniors in order to protect his ego, fine. But, there are serious students here who are interested in learning something. I would hate to see someone rob themselves of the power that proper internal body mechanics can generate, just so they can appeal to a false esthetic.
When the classics says movements come from the waist they mean movements come from the hips ie. the ingrinal grooves. This is the sexual area of the body and where the most power in the body is generated from.
hmmmm all goodie good explanations! mine’s gonna be nearly the same but yeah here goes. this was one of my recent thinking things while pushing hands.
Often hip power and everything you see people snapping their hips. while this is a way to generate power it’s not exactly the corect way. Here’s where i may come under fire.
When you turn during push hands, your feet don’t turn. your head doesn’t turn. you HIPS DO NOT TURN. it is your spine that turns. I’m not quite sure how to explain it but if you do it concentrate on your spine and going forward. if you can feel your spine rotating(or rather the base of it) then your hips are turning to. i used to be this way in that i would try to twist it hard and fast and of course ppl do that and it makes noise and your fist goes fast and does have power but it’s the power of your back..
basically that’s it. just concenrate on the spine and feel it turn rather than your hips. because if your spine turns and your body squares (aligns) then you should know your hips automatically turn with your spine.
that’s why most tai chi masters (i can’t speak for all) lean a slight bit forward. because it’s their spine that gives them the power to push.
muhahaha now i can outpush my grandma! (i know it sounds sick but she’s like 20 years tai chi practioner and not even this 6’3 , 250 lbs white guy could push her over!! haha!
i guess it comes down to your understanding. if something’s not working for you then you gotta re-think how you do it and why someone else can do it and you can’t. that’s how i always get my stuff!
Hi,
I want to agree with Zantesuken, but I have to say it in a way that might sound like it’s the opposite.
Don’t rotate the spine, rotate the hips.
OK, I’ll explain:
If you twist at the waist, you’re rotating your spine at waist level, and your hips and shoulders are no longer connected. The y-axis is going through the spine, one shoulder goes forward and the other backward.
If you do the same thing and turn the hips and the spine together as a unit, without twisting at the waist, then one shoulder and the same side hip will go back, along with a fair amount of your push.
If you move the y-axis over to the hip opposite the side of the pushing hand, then the side of the pushing hand goes forward and nothing goes back. As you move your dantien toward your target, the hips will rotate slightly, opening the Kua and aligning the hips to root the push.
The best way to play with this is to push gently against someone or something and play with the alignment. When you’ve got it right, the your push goes back into your heel instead of pushing your body back.
I hope that makes sense.
It seems Fu-Pow 's lack of awareness does not include differentiation of waist from hip. Look at skilled Ba-Gua people. walking a circle. The groin faces along the circle. That is the hips. Their torso can face directly into the circle. This is the hip.
EMA-the movement can be done with or without full use of the Hip. But the hip transfers the energy (gotten from below)(transfers it to be channeled (to where ever).
IMA-Without the Hip the movement is not correct. The Hip acts as a Connector.
IMA- The hip is opend or closed. But is set before the Waist moves. Acting as a support. While in EMA the Hip can be in transitwhile opening /closing.
[SIZE=3]The difference seems to be in the transition speed. It’s faster in EMA and slower in IMA.[/SIZE]
“When the classics says movements come from the waist they mean movements come from the hips ie. the ingrinal grooves. This is the sexual area of the body and where the most power in the body is generated from.”
Is that an interpretation of the Classics, Nexus?
Yes, as explained to me by my teachers.
Thank you.
I think that loosening up the waist and turning it and not the hips is the answer here. The waist (the one I’ve been taught) is moving the rib cage with the hips never leaving their 45-60 degree angle in the bow and arrow stance (try receiving when they’re straight and you’ll have a hard time of it). That way you can get whole body power without twisting your hips (really, your ankles which breaks any structure you may have).
Sit on your forelegs (in a Japanese seiza) and twist your waist with a long stick or something to gain more flexibility in your torso, that way you can turn and keep your structure while doing it.
Have fun,
Oh yeah, turning the hips also exposes your centreline (very bad, right?).
Turning the hips relocates the centerline. I feel that the centerline~ is guarded by the arms and waist and hips whic canmove or rotate the centerline out of damage effect ofthe most immediate attack. The legs (knees, footwork, legwork) can defend or move too the centerline.
Hey man,
What I had in mind here was lines of strength (structure) in push hands. If you turn the hips forward (really, I mean rotating the pelvis into this position) you end up in having a gap behind yourself that makes you vulnerable in tui-shou. What I really mean is that to rotate the pelvis forward in such a manner reduces this front-back line of strength and that it can only be accomplished by means of employing physical movement (which is not to be used in true Taiji, IMA due to the necessity of using non-muscular energy for locomotion).
You’re absolutely right, though. The centreline can be well defended with the upper body and footwork. Many other styles (Jeet Kune Do for instance) also advocate a side on or centerline protected stance that involves keeping the pelvis at an angle and not face forward at 90 degrees.
O.K. The centerline is NOT a fixed point on your body, but rather the vertical center of gravity. Because of this, it is the best targeting area for throws/strikes. The positioning of the hips won’t “protect the cenerline” as it’s not a fixed point! Irregardless of the hip position, the hip joints are targets, at least in Pa Kua Chang and you can bet I’m going after them if they happen to be riding along the opponents center supposedly “protecting” it.
having trained in both shaolin and IMA, i was taught the same principle in both: power is rooted in the feet, directed by the waist, functions through the hands. I think rather than viewing it as hips or waist, think of only tan tien. all movement should originate from center and all techniques should adhere to some type of center action. the difference between EMA and IMA is in the delivery of the technique, relaxed-sinew-penetrating through vs. focus -tensing at impact. i was analyzing this hip-waist issue while running the TCC form and i think they move together but the waist has a slightly bigger range of motion.. good thread all.