To Kill Or Not To Kill

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Over the years I have had the opportunity to train with several teachers. All have different approaches and emaphasis on training.

One teacher wanted us to workout super hard, killing us in every session. Forcing us to adjust and to adapt during the work out. However, some people never could keep up and were not able to perform properly during class. While overly exhausted they could not execute stances, postures or structure properly, thus in my opinion creating bad muscle memory habits.

Another teacher only wanted to train the stances, posture and structure while we had the energy to devote to focusing on proper training. While we had plenty of energy and focus to put to proper stance, posture etc etc, the workouts were not as exhausting and no one was getting into “Shape”.

This has nothing to do with sparring / resistance class. Both had sparring / Shuai Chiao / fighting drills / San Shou etc etc. This training was strictly basic skills class.

Which way do you go? Is there a middle ground?

ginosifu

2

A good trainer should have you in cycles.

For example, Monday class after a long weekend should have a nice warm up, technical drills, some light free play.

Wed. you should get crushed. Intense warm up. Heavy resistance drills. Long round, heavy free play.

Fri. more stretch-like warm up, technical drills, maybe fun like free play: one man stands in guard and passes without using hands. Or one man is IT and has to take everyone down. Once taken down, now you’re on his team and have to help take every one down.

You go through cycles. It helps if the coach/trainer is doing it with you. Then they understand how the body feels.

You do need to be pushed. It’s not bad to have that, “I might throw up” feeling every once in a while. Part of MA is training the mind. When you’re tired and sore, maybe even hurt, you have to perform… at the same time you have to protect yourself and be mindful of injuries. Hurt and injured are not the same.

3

It depends on what people are in class for.
Going “balls to the wall” is great ( though you should always leave some gas in the tank) IF class is the ONLY workout you get.
Personally I believe Class time is just that, instructional.
Conditioning should be done outside of class time.
But not everyone has the schedule to do this so it is understandable that class time becomes class/workout time.

4

conditioning day 1, day 2, day–

just like a soccer, or basket ball team, they run around football field or basket ball court

we were asked to do a lot of warming up, stretching, and running around dojo or gym or just outdoor field.

10 laps then 25 laps, then 50 laps

we do that every time before class/instruction

–

we have to repeat lessons from last time well

before any new instructions/lessons

–

these are 2 same criteria from all of my teachers.

:slight_smile:

5

I personally use cycles as well and try to avoid the same work out twice.

I don’t mix striking workouts (bags,mitts,partner,shadow) with lifting and vice versa.

I do mix cal with sets and plenty of bodywork with sets.
I feel the best time to practice your set is WHEN you are exhausted and it literally forces you to be more aware and to listen to your own failings and to understand them and find ways to improve.

6

I definitely don’t want to do jumping jacks, etc… But pummeling, shooting, rounds on the heavy bag, shadow boxing, sprawling all train specific skills, muscle memory while providing awesome cardio. Though we also do fireman carry drills, bear crawls, crocodile crawls, vertical jumping onto boxes, over boxes, sledge hammer large tires, flip large tires etc… this provides explosivity, muscle endurance and it trains you to keep going when tired.

There’s also the factor of pushing yourself harder when you’re with classmates preparing for competition.

Jogging I do on my own. Weights I do on my own. But I see the difference all the time when other schools come to train with us or in competition. Conditioning is often the deciding factor, especially when two people are close in skill/knowledge.

7

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1133368]
I feel the best time to practice your set is WHEN you are exhausted and it literally forces you to be more aware and to listen to your own failings and to understand them and find ways to improve.[/QUOTE]

That is the best use of form I have heard. That is reasonable. Sort of a maintenance check up.

8

I think doing conditioning drills that are specific to your skillset is good. Enough to warm up the whole body. If you are working some specific stuff that day, those drills will be in line with the material. Some people are come straight from work or school, so enough to prepare everyone for violent action is good, then stretch it out and start the drills and sparring. I like to do around 30 min of skill specific conditioning then 1.5-2 hours of drills and sparring in class. It feels about right. Weight training and additional conditioning should be done outside of class. Even if you gas, you can refresh petty quick if you aren’t in horrible shape.

9

Wait, are you talking about a separate “workout” class that is different from the normal “martial arts skills” class?

10

[QUOTE=IronFist;1133392]Wait, are you talking about a separate “workout” class that is different from the normal “martial arts skills” class?[/QUOTE]

This is kind of how I’m doing it lately.

My muay thai gym used to be a lot different.
There have been a shortage of seniors around; so the coach really switched stuff up.

Used to be: about the first hour was a structured workout that included warm up, calisthenics, and maybe some shadow. The second hour was technique work with a partner, pad work, bag work, and maybe some light sparring. The end result was getting s&c along side my skills. Even still, at that time I used to go to another gym for dedicated bag work, and a fitness gym for weights & cardio - usually on the same days.

These days, everyone shows up at different times, there is not structured workout at the beginning, and almost the entire thing is working attack/defense techniques with a partner. I’m lucky if I can get in 5 rounds of jump rope before having to rush off to go work with a new guy on the most basic of attack/defense drills.

I’m going to try to make a push for some pad work instead of no contact defense drills; so the 2 or 3 seniors can at least get some sort of workout.

In the meantime, I’m getting my actual workout from the krav maga school’s fitness classes.
I still need to figure out when I can get in some proper bag work - maybe after monday yoga.
We do interval work on the bags, but it’s not proper bag work.

I’d prefer not to have to work out 3 separate times a day like I used to.
I think that kind of schedule makes things much more of a grind and makes me more injury prone.
Having different things on different days is also nice; because I feel like I’m actually missing something if I skip out on a day. If I just go to the same gym(s) every day, it gets kind of a monotonous and missing a day here or there doesn’t seem like a big deal.

Also, I refuse to run, so I gotta make up that cardio somewhere.
Besides, I think doing a few hours of tabata-type intervals and crosfit-like training will give me better stamina than jogging ever could.
If I can get strength & conditioning work and technique work in at 1 to 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, it sure beats spending my whole life in the gym.

11

When I was younger our workouts started with a 2 mile run. Then 30 - 45 minutes of stretching. Then 2000 (yes two thousand) jumping jacks 200 monkey Jumps, 200 Donkey Kicks, 200 push ups, 200 crunch sit ups. Then a cardio set of kicks punches drills usually done in line drills etc etc. Classes back then were 3 hours and normally 3-6 people in a class. Anyone who could not keep up was told don’t let the door hit you in the ass on your way out. After the hardcore exercise and drill session came the form work out and then fighting or sparring.

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1133368]
I feel the best time to practice your set is WHEN you are exhausted and it literally forces you to be more aware and to listen to your own failings and to understand them and find ways to improve.[/QUOTE]

I have one problem with the above statement. This is only good for advanced students. Beginners have not grasped the basics and will increase the risk of creating bad habits, especially with structure, proper stance and correct posture. All these basic skills go out the door when a beginner is exhausted. I find it useless to try and teach proper structure and execution of a technique while the student’s only focus is not to throw up in the classroom.

For advanced students, I think DJ’s approach is good. I always attempt to work fixing alignment, execution etc while doing my forms even to this day.

ginosifu

12

I know some people are gonna spit coffee or milk or whatever out there face when they read this, but some of you won’t.

Form can take a long time to understand fully.

First there is the shape and the pattern.
Then you have to learn to express the shape and fill it wit the correct energies.
Then you have to be able to break it down and understand applications drawn from the combinations within.

This process can take literally years before everything within the form is completely understood.

so, yeah, for beginners, it’s about having them learn the form and then get to a point where they understand it, can make it flow, can pull it apart and drill the combos within etc.

I further understand that some guys are also gonna hate reading this, but we have a set in our style that takes about 6 months to a year just to learn it and about 2 to 3 years to express it properly on average. some students are adept and others less so but the timeline is average.

having said that any discipline at all will take you about 10,000 hours or 10 years to master. that much is known through the scientific method as applied by Malcolm Gladwell in his study titled “Outliers”.

So, Gino, I agree, not for beginners this method, but definitely an introduction to continued investment in failure for advanced students. :slight_smile:

13

[QUOTE=ginosifu;1133422]When I was younger our workouts started with a 2 mile run. Then 30 - 45 minutes of stretching. Then 2000 (yes two thousand) jumping jacks 200 monkey Jumps, 200 Donkey Kicks, 200 push ups, 200 crunch sit ups. Then a cardio set of kicks punches drills usually done in line drills etc etc. [/QUOTE]
IMO, you don’t need to do push up, sit up in class because you can do that at home all by yourself.

Some people may asked you, “How many times do you train weekly?” I like to ask people, “How many times do you train daily?” The proper way of training should be 3 times daily:

  • Go to school to learn (learn new skill).
  • Come home to train (heavy bag, weight, …).
  • Get with your sparring partners and spar/wrestle (test your skill).

In this TV movie, the teacher asked his student to use shovel to move dirt from one side of the yard to another side for 49 days. The teacher then asked his student to use basket to carry dirt from one side of the yard to another side of the yard for another 49 days. In those 98 days training, the student has developed good body strength, balance, … Ability like this just cannot be trained in the class environment.

http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f3109631o1p0.html

14

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1133429]
Form can take a long time to understand fully.

[/QUOTE]

I see stuff in BJJ now that I’m like, “Wow, that’s what that was” about karate forms I learned over 20 years ago.

My favorite form is from Bak Mei… a style I didn’t even really study. But I always liked it. Short choppy steps linked with powerful striking. Lot of dangerous stuff in that short form.

15

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1133433]IMO, you don’t need to do push up, sit up in class because you can do that at home all by yourself.

Some people may asked you, “How many times do you train weekly?” I like to ask people, “How many times do you train daily?” The proper way of training should be 3 times daily:

  • Go to school to learn (learn new skill).
  • Come home to train (heavy bag, weight, …).
  • Get with your sparring partners and spar/wrestle (test your skill).[/QUOTE]

Again, this is a good concept for advanced students.

Come home to train (heavy bag, weight, …).
Beginners may not know what exercises to do after class. Some may not have time after class. When I first decided that I was going to learn Martial Arts I did not have a clue about I was going do in the class except that I wanted to learn what Qwai Chan Caine did in the 70’s TV show “KUNG FU”. When we started heavy workouts and push ups etc, I really did not care and thought it was just part of the training. At that time in my life I was young and already in shape, I had no desire to “Workout”. All I wanted to do was to become like Qwai Chan Caine.

Beginner students do not posses the knowledge of what is the correct type workout they should be doing at home. They may not even have time to do it at home. The teachers must show what the proper exercises / weight training etc etc. that will benefit their Kung Fu. As the student advances then they can carry their workout at home to do on their own.

Get with your sparring partners and spar/wrestle (test your skill)
Sparring partners are hard to by outside of the class room. No one that I knew (friends or family) wanted roll around with me. That’s why beginners should stay in class room and spar / roll around with fellow classmates. It was not until I was a bit more advanced before going to other schools (karate / bbj / kenpo etc) and asked if I could spar with anyone.

Beginners should not try any of this until they get a grasp of fighting / wrestling. Looking outside of class is something for more advanced students.

ginosifu

16

None of the above! You are just spending your money foolishly and the instructor is just letting you exert yourself and not learning anything for that money. All physical training should be the responsibility of the individuals. They know that they should be building strength and stamina, so they should be doing that on their own time. When you show up for gung fu class, you should be there strictly to learn. Learning is best done with a clear mind and rested body. Once you learn the skills, you can then train them at will, but running and jumping jacks are not gung fu. They waste time that could be better spent teaching and learning. No one does their best when exhausted. No one learns proper form when exhausted. And you should not do drills or gung fu moves until you are exhausted.
Physical training can be done without cost and can be done at your leasure. Don’t waste time in class doing that. Make that time count for something.

17

I won’t waste time on those who go to school to train and come home to rest. This was the major dis-agreement that I had when I was in the Judo forum. Most Judo guys in that forum had very strong belief that training at home can build up bad habit. To me, not training at home is the bad habit.

18

I understand the “kwoon is for learning” and “exercise at home” principle… I would say the majority of TCMA people I trained with where not of an athletic build. Nowhere near the level of boxers, wrestles, BJJers.

Your training should build you. You can tell a wrestler by his body. You can tell a boxer by the way his arms are built… from countless hours of pad work, bags, etc.

Let’s look at ourselves honestly: If all this time is being put “to learning” in class. What are students learning? What’s the take away? Form? We don;t have an over abundance of well fit, physically athletic looking fighters on our hands? In fact, video of the bigger names folk reveal guys winded after a mile jog. Non muscular guys doing wishy washy forms with no power or intent.

There’s a difference between doing two man resistance drills (something as simple as take downs) as doing pushups… which I’m also not against. Just for the heck of it. Randomly during class. Drop and bang out 20.

A martial artist needs his mind and wits but there’s a part in a fighter that should be like a machine. Just capable of running when tired, hurt, gassed. That comes from exertion. And being forced to perform.

19

i hit bag and lift weight every morning. i no longer have time to train form or two man drills.

20

if i had a shcool i would take the entire class to gym to do squats every morning at 6 am.