This question is going to be clumsy. I warn you now. But here goes:
When you’re bridging, you’re trying to initiate contact and then gain control of the opponent’s limbs, yeah?
When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he’s retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?
Related question: Lots of systems have trapping, block and counter, etc. In the books, they seem to rely on the person’s arm remaining out there. In real life, though, good fighters are quick to retract the arm. So you can’t stand there working various transfers, blocking maneuvers, etc.
So, when do you apply these sorts of manipulations? Or do you do them at all?
Anything is fair game. Everything from bong sao (wing-like block in wing chun, yeah?) to eskrima’s tapi maneuvers. Pak sao. Etc.
How often are you able to actually pull off limb work more elaborate than a quick parry and counter?
I guess I have never thought too much about when I am trying to bridge or make contact. In reality it is hard to say when contact will be made, that is why I work so much at hubud and chi sao, getting that sensitivity so that when it does happen, I am ready.
i don’t think it’s as important to bridge with someone’s limbs as it is to simply go forward with smacking them in mind, and if bridge is made, knowing how to respond. a reflex like chi sau should only happen when the way to your target is not clear. i don’t think it’s a matter of timing as much as it is a matter of intention. i want to hit my target. if something gets in the way, i will go around it, move through it or just clear it out of the way.
after reading MP and rubthebuddhas’ respnse, I think to me bridging is sort of a passive thing for me, it happens when it needs to and I don’t think about it much, if that makes sense.
Originally posted by rubthebuddha i don’t think it’s as important to bridge with someone’s limbs as it is to simply go forward with smacking them in mind, and if bridge is made, knowing how to respond. a reflex like chi sau should only happen when the way to your target is not clear. i don’t think it’s a matter of timing as much as it is a matter of intention. i want to hit my target. if something gets in the way, i will go around it, move through it or just clear it out of the way.
I’m glad you said this. It hits on a couple of things I’ve been thinking.
I think intent is a big part of the equation too. But when I’ve drilled sensitivity drills in the past, the ‘intent’ has usually been to do the drill right. Not much emphasis on actually changing what MP would call ‘positional dominance’ (is that right?). Maintain range, accept the feed, feed back, flow on and on. The focus has been on the drill, and therefore, on the arms doing the feeding. Rather than on the trunk or head that is the ultimate objective. Or the change in position (e.g., getting past the arms to take the back).
When do you time that? Do you try to initiate contact as the opponent strikes out? As he’s retracting? Or do you dive right in and try to take them right off the bat?
I try (try being the opperative word) when the arm is at full extention. When it is there it is easiest to deflect and trap, or to manipulate unless the person is leaving that back hand too close to the body and I’ll go for that. Hope that made any sense…
Ap, wouldn’t it sort of pertain to what you are trying to do? For example, to break a joint, waiting to full extension might be optimal, where as joint locking or blocking/parry, you may not want to wait that long.
I try (try being the opperative word) when the arm is at full extention. When it is there it is easiest to deflect and trap, or to manipulate unless the person is leaving that back hand too close to the body and I’ll go for that. Hope that made any sense… [/B]
This is the thing. I’ve tried that too. But it seems to me that anyone with any retract on their technique isn’t going to leave their hand out there very long. So I’ve been thinking that stepping up and intercepting it on the way in or following it back in after it’s thrown is preferable.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is (hopefully) the sh-ttiest description I shall ever provide for anything.
Don’t know if this well help but here goes, as a FMA gent you know it is often about closing and opening the gate, if you are on the outside you might want to “close his gate” so you have a limb trapped/crossed against his own centerline. If you are on the inside you might want to bridge and “open his gate” so you can get access to all the inner goodies.
IMO this is all about the footwork, your forward drive and intital position which is something which often can not be picked. If you use footwork/forward drive to spring on your entry, use your lower body to shock the attacker, then I think bridging works better.
By this I mean if I enter on the outside, it helps that I use my lower body to offbalance you on the bridge, such as if I slam my knee/shin into that sides leg to extend it and shock you up, think sikaran, plus you know its not going to be a 1-2-3 beat thing, you are going to be moving on the 1/2 beats with the footwork, check, and strike.
Originally posted by red5angel
[B]Ap, wouldn’t it sort of pertain to what you are trying to do? For example, to break a joint, waiting to full extension might be optimal, where as joint locking or blocking/parry, you may not want to wait that long.
or am I way off here? [/B]
No, I think that’s right on target. But it raises the next question. How feasible is that? How successful have people been at ‘catching’ techniques at full extension and applying that ever-popular elbow break, for example?
(No, not the actual break. Just the right positioning.)
Well, I don’t know about anyone else, but outside of drilling I often feel like a good “Catch” was more luck then anything else. I know the training increases those chances, but it doesn’t seem to happen or atleast be picture perfect often.
When I do catching techniques I am not looking to reach out and catch the strike. It helps me to wait for the strike to come into the range of my catch…which kinda looks like a lap sao…combined with a short pivot to pull them offbalance for me to slam a forearm into their elbow.
part of it is also having made bridge and just following their energy. if your right arms are crossed, outside to outside, and they are pushing, a simple turn to the right to encourage that arm to lock while bringing your left arm up to just above the elbow results in a elbow lock. the smoother you do it (the less force you use), the quicker this will happen and the more likely mr. bad guy won’t realize it happened until too late. i’ll use the typical wing chun maxims:
stay with what comes – if your meet bridge, stick with it (and let the force go by you and lock them out like i just said, for example)
follow through when the hand retreats – on this, or another thread, someone mentioned following a retreating arm back into the body. this is an opening and you need to exploit it.
attack when disengaged – if you don’t have a bridge and you’re going forward, that means your opponent will have a broken nose and worse. don’t go about it looking for a bridge. go about it trying to hit them and deal with the bridge if it’s there. it’s not about bridge – it’s about clockin the other dude in the grill.
I think as said before that if you apply the trap it needs to be either on the way out, or following on the way back. Trying to time a trap or parry to right when the punch is at full extension is near impossible. With a kick it’s slower, you may be able to deal with it near full extension.
As far as bridging, I practice two ways - initiating with the first blow and dealing with any obstructions by either removing the obstruction or going around it, or else passively waiting on his move and neutralizing it followed by entry and engagement. For instance, sometimes I will take the clinch by neutralizing the lead hand, riding it using my sensitivity to keep it blocked away, then neutralizing the inevitable rear hand strike as well using my other hand. Followed by knee, takedown, or clinch strikes.
Sikaran or some call it panajackman, is basically as you know just combining low-line kicks, stomps and levers with your high-line attacks.
Lets say you throw a punch and I enter from the outside, if I am able to tap-check it on the entry, it helps if my 45* footwork ends up smashing my knee into your outside thigh nerve, the old irish toothache, or going angle on the knee or shin to shift you offbalance or even to stomp/trap on a foot or blast you with my hip.
With a little pain down below it makes the upstairs work easier. Heck a good full bore knee to the outside thigh is nasty and could drop the guy right there.
“its about clockin the other dude in the grill”- rubthebudda
True dat!
Trapping can get over complicated IMO. The goal is to hit the guy. As an entry their are also destructions that do not require catching, such as guntings to the bicep/tricep, cross-arm chops to the arms, elbow to the bicep if deep on the inside, just even punching the guy in the bicep or back of the hand, knee to the outside thigh, impact strikes to the limbs and nerves, stuff like that.
You can bridge on action (when limb is extended - easist, because you know where all yours and his ‘pieces’ are) before action (respond to retraction..) or after action (while opponent withdraws limb… most common…)
What happens after contact is made depends entirely on the ‘energy’ your being given from the opponent. Which you can kinda shape and old based on what types of motions and limbs and energys you give to your opponent.
