If I am not mistaken..Lama Pai is related to the “Hop Ga” system..
In the only fighting competition I’ve been in, a Kyokushin Karate tournament, I was knocked out (unable to continue) from a good hard body shot. I also love body shot knockouts in boxing. I think there is a compilation on a tube website.
Anyone care to comment on developing chyuhn / penetration?
[QUOTE=bawang;1176868]the traditional tibetan martial arts of archery and wrestling are alive and well in tibet, and traditional culture in tibet is also continous and well preserved, with no “lost history”.
more importantly, chinese martial arts with legitimate ties to lamas all practice spirit possession, called the great spirit jump.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your feedback, still you have not fully replied my question; what are your sources?
Thanks
[QUOTE=Andy Miles;1176871]I have sworn brothers in Tibet. Never heard of Lama Pai.
They can do cowboy horse tricks because until not very long ago Tibetans were still raiding in Sichuan.
People still carry swords in remote areas. The only martial art you can see is military san da.
Nothing definitive, just another perspective.[/QUOTE]
I am not surprised they have never heard of Lama Pai, Lama Pai is not the original name of the system
[QUOTE=Gru Bianca;1177202]Thanks for your feedback, still you have not fully replied my question; what are your sources?
Thanks[/QUOTE]
it comes from oral history of martial arts in jiangsu province my hometown. during the boxing rebellion lamas introduced spirit possession to produce quick results.
chinese use qigong and taoist magic, tibetans, mongols and manchu use spirit possession.
other than archery and wrestling, some tibetans practiced chinese martial arts. their form and concepts dont differ, we have very close cultural ties. its the teaching of spirit possession that is a giveaway of tibetan and mongol influence. mongols invite animal spirits, tibetans invite buddhist demon princes.
for written documents, one of the republican era shaolin monks wrote about the prevalence of tibetan monks in the boxer rebellion
secondary reasons include:
chinese wrestling with manchu influence use mongol and manchu terms. if you had tibetan influence you would at least have some basic words, like punch or kick.
hap kuen looks exactly like northern martial arts.
hap kuen looks nothing like sichuan and qinghai martial arts.
hap kuen is gangster kung fu. gangsters make a lot of things up.
Might be worth noting that the system is officially titled Bak Hok Pai. “Tibetan” is not really part of the name but is often added to distinguish it from southern white crane arts.
[QUOTE=bawang;1177222] …tibetans invite buddhist demon princes.[/QUOTE]
We have Vajrapani in common with Shaolin.
hap kuen is gangster kung fu. gangsters make a lot of things up.
Hah!
Agreed
origin myths
The “Lion’s Roar” tradition has an origin myth that is strikingly similar to Hung Mun/Triad myths. Other elements are common to many Chinese systems.
-
A sage/martial genius has a revelatory experience in which he is inspired by a totemic animal to create a fighting system. This happens during a Han golden age (middle of the Ming Dynasty).
-
His system becomes cloistered within a monastery and is developed by monks for several generations.
-
The system leaves its monastic home and becomes associated with a royal family (Qing).
-
A master of the system chooses four disciples to travel with him. Stories link him with great events in local history and folklore. The four disciples are dispersed to wander and teach, never to be heard from again.
-
The master (Sage Dragon–perhaps a Dragon Head?) finds a new home and chooses his last group of disciples to learn all of his fighting skills and advanced medical techniques.
-
The master dies and the five door-closing disciples become the gentlemen warriors, associated with the knights errant of old and form patriotic societies. They inspire youths to become strong and serve the public with their medical clinics. Other business need not be brought up here.
Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes…
I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers…you don’t want to channel in the old Uncle Moe…
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1178747]Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes…
I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers…you don’t want to channel in the old Uncle Moe…[/QUOTE]
Depends on whether he had a violent streak. If he was a gentle soul, leave him at rest. If he got grumpy…well, a big, grumpy, smelly old man is a perfect choice. No one wants to touch him.
Spirit/demon channeling is still pretty common in the south. White Crane uses buddhist symbolism but the problem with a supposedly monastic origin is that Vajrayana schools all begin with practicing compassion. Demonic identification is used as a vehicle for tantric practices only after acknowledging that all tantric work must depend on the ideal of compassion and it requires years of practice. Outside the monastic communities its a different story. Any independent yogi may invite possession by whatever being he chooses.
btw: Vajrapani is an emmanation of Indra. The Indo-European source that gives us Indra and Ching Kang also became the thunder god in the west. Hence, Vajrapani = Thor/Thunaer/Donner. Imagine an angry Thor weilding thunderbolt/hammer with bristling beard and blazing red eyes and you have a pretty image to use for inspiration. The Thais have this guy too; I forget what they call him.
Another demon god used in Tibetan tantric ritual is Heruka=Rig=Heimdal. Hard to imagine the berserkers didn’t channel these guys. Drugs alone won’t do it.
Just found these videos. Anyone know Sifu Ruhu Zhu? As I understood, Chan Tai San was from Toisan, and Lei Fei San is also either there or nearby, I’m not sure.
Toisan White Crane:
Having learned a little and seen a lot more I can say that is not CTS lama pai .
I mentioned CTS only because I found it interesting that Toisan would have both Lama and TWC traditions going on. If anyone is intersted, I found this info:
http://www.whitecrane.ws/about-white-crane/master-zhu/lineage.html
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1011250
Can anyone say whether Lei Fei San is teaching in Toisan? Why does the area have such a strong Lama/TWC tradition?
[QUOTE=yeshe;1180424]Having learned a little and seen a lot more I can say that is not CTS lama pai .[/QUOTE]
definitely not - Sifu’s stuff had certain signatures to it that were reflective of his combination of the Lama and CLF that he learned;
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1178747]Hakk Kuen also uses spirit possession, or sun-dar.
So does that funky Vietnamese school I see at tournaments sometimes…
I channel in my Uncle Moe sometimes when grappling. He had a great bearhug in his day.
Problem is, when he got older, he needed adult diapers…you don’t want to channel in the old Uncle Moe…[/QUOTE]
Dude…you owe me a keyboard! :mad:
[QUOTE=madhusudan;1180259]Just found these videos. Anyone know Sifu Ruhu Zhu? As I understood, Chan Tai San was from Toisan, and Lei Fei San is also either there or nearby, I’m not sure.
Toisan White Crane:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ToisanWC/videos[/QUOTE]
Toisan district is huge with millions and millions of people.
It’s not hard to find completely disparate styles of TCMA coming from people who come from there. Or are there now.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1180484]Toisan district is huge with millions and millions of people.
It’s not hard to find completely disparate styles of TCMA coming from people who come from there. Or are there now.[/QUOTE]
True. Lots of White Crane people from there, including Tse Cheuk Tong. He was, as far as I know, the first person to bring White Crane and Hop Ga to the U.S. in 1963.
Pak Hok short bridges
Off the top of my head here’s a list of some of the White Crane short hands:
Elbows–lots of these. The upper bau jang and downward strike to the collarbone are probably the most useful.
Jin cheui–short jab.
Pek cheui–chop, often done with the ulnar side of the wrist rather than a hammerfist.
Nau sau–grab.
Chin kiu–a trapping hand.
Jaap kiu–obstructing hand.
Kam sau–smothering/pressing with forearm.
Da cheui–short backfist.
Seung lung sau–double dragon hands, an inward elbow wrench.
Hok tauh–crane head strike with the back of wrist. The same hand shape is used for wrist hooks, also frequently trained in the system.
Jaau–monkey hand “claw” for seizing veins, nerves and muscles.
Pak sau–slaps using palm or back of hand.
Fung ngan cheui–phoenix eye strike.
Chaau cheui–hook punch.
Pok yihk–“wing beat,” a short hand when used as a backfist groin strike.
Seh ying or snake shaped fist–like a panther fist but with the wrist bent outwards to strike around an obstructing arm, or bent downward to strike points on the arm.
New info to me:
“Originally known as Heyang Quan or Crane/Yang Fist; the “yang” is taken from the name of the place “HuiYang” where this system was centered.”
http://eric88ling.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/侠家拳-xiajia-quan-or-hap-gar-kuen/
The quote is in reference to Hap Gar. Huiyang appears to be an area near Hong Kong on the mainland. Can anyone confirm or deny the above, especially the name Heyang? I’m curious.
heyang quan means hard crane. its a fujian short hand style.