There will never be a Mc BJJgrapplingkickboxingnhbdojo.It's impossible.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
21

Oletrhos,
I don’t think you’ll hear any serious MMA professionals claiming that the ring is the same as the street, but their training will most likely prepare them better for “the street” than any weekend warrior ever will be, regardless of how many “self defense” drills they practice. The mental preparation is very important in real world self defense, and the truth is that most professional fighters (especially Mixed Martial artists) are better equipped to perform under great stress, fear, and just plain exhaustion than most of us weekend warriors are.

As for the McGyms, as everyone here is saying, the BJJ community is a small one, and there just aren’t enough people involved to go around and shut all the fake schools down. That would require way too much research, travel, and “cleaning” time, and not enough training time. The McGyms won’t be dominating the tournaments, because their students will be learning “Real self defense BJJ”, not the “competition stuff”. There are always people out there that buy this stuff. They don’t want to compete, and they don’t want to work hard, but they want to study something that’ll make them tough. How are they supposed to compare it to other BJJ schools, when they’re too busy learning some watered down commercialized version of it?

It happens, but at least they won’t be the big name schools, because of the competion element. Same thing happens in pretty much any martial art. I know of a couple weak Muay Thai schools here in Vegas. I thought the competition would weed them out, but you know what…They’re growing!

Jaguar Wong

[i]“If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!”

  • The Sphinx[/i]
22

Jaguar Wong is correct!

“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist

23

I seen one of them UFC fights last night (a little off topic sorry)

three really but I don’t see why all the rednecks like to mount another guy. This fighting I saw would be compleatly none effective against more than one player. Also for all that know CMA’s went to japan, but missing some stuff (of importance). Then they (japan’s arts) were taken to creat BJJ and other tripple copyed arts.

Also to those that think UFC has only BJJ + JJ fighters I just wanted to say that what I’ve seen was only monkey style done from the ground I think they must have copyed (taking moves from)monkey or another style that did. I think that you grapplers would never stand a chance you think that you would get someone to the ground mount them like you would your girlfriend and punch them in the face. News flash I will kick you in the balls or break your knee then if you do get me to the ground poke you in the eyes and I not talking gently I will remove an eye if thats what it takes to get you’r gay ass off me.

So now that I’ve pissed all the BJJ guys off; go screw your girlfriend then at least cross train so you can fight back while standing up. Humans walk on two legs and if you think you’ll do better on hands and knees then blow me…you could from your fighting stance.

Sorry I went off I just can’t stand everyone thinking humans (that spend most of there time standing) would fight better on there hands and knees. I call it common sense but it’s none too common with BJJ players. All I need to say to what ever you that are angry after reading this is challenge two untrained people to fight you at the same time you don’t stand a chance (and there untrained) your “art” or photo copy of one WILL NOT WORK IN THE STREETS. You think life is like a movie and every one will line up single file and fight you fairly one at a time. Think you are human whats the most natural way to move? How do you get from point A to point B you walk. :eek:

you must unlearn what you have learned then and only then will you be wise and have knolage

24

lol @ Yin Lion!

You must not be watching too much of the UFC if you dont see all the stand up thats being used. Thats ok, as your kind will never get too far past dancing and throwing technicques in the air, while feeling content that youd murder someone in the street.

And yes, I have fought multiple opponents for real, more than once in my bouncing days, so I guess I feel pretty confident in my ability to judge whats most likely to be street effective.

“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist

25

Boulder Student, yep, I see signs for one of them with a phone number that says “Boxing and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu”. I’ve called the number, but I get no answer. If I see one of the signs at lunch I’ll post the number here.

I don’t have any problem with a school that teaches BJJ as a small part of their training. Hell, our school kind of does that. We have a black belt from our school that is also purple under Carlson and he comes in and shows us some stuff and we spend a class each week or so just working that stuff he showed us until we see him again. That’s ok with me.

It’s the guys that teach it as an intergral part of their “art” and have no more credentials than I do (seminars and tapes and too much unsupervised rolling) getting money off of the GJJ name. But I guess that happens with all of the martial arts eventually.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

26

Ralek might start one.

“Bruce Leroy. That’s who!”

27

…(hauls out tired old answer to the either/or argument)…

No human being can guarantee in a real fight that it will definitely remain standing nor that it will definitely go to the ground. Therefore, a complete fighter will want to be prepared for any eventuality.

As for McDojos in BJJ/MMA…yes, it is not only possible, it is likely. In fact, the higher the profile and the tougher the training, the faster an art is likely to be “McDojo’d”. Let’s look at why. If an art is high profile, i.e., it wins lots of public tournaments, it draws much greater attention from the masses. Especially the teen male demographic. This means that there is an increase in demand for the product.

If an art includes extremely rigorous and tough training, it will tend to have a much smaller number of practitioners. This happens when people get “weeded out” by the training intensity. Therefore, we have a decrease in demand for the product.

So far, it would seem that these two factors would tend to balance each other out. On the one hand, people see a high-profile art and initially are drawn to it. On the other hand, the rigor of the training discourages just as many people, and so the art would soon find a balance between them.

Now…enter opportunism. A potential snake oil salesman gets himself enough training to begin teaching with credibility, then begins to cater to a broader market by making the training much easier to obtain, thereby capitalizing on the initial great demand for the art. The masses, seeing a chance to study the art they’ve seen work so well, only without all the back-breaking hard work, flock to this guy in droves. And since the overall legitimate community is still so small, he can operate in a relatively low-profile, all the while raking in the dough.

Now if this scenario is repeated a few times, it won’t be long before this particular art suffers the same fate as every other effective form of fighting that has ever rolled down the pike. Eventually, you end up with a few very good schools and lots of really crappy ones. The cheap knock-offs simply become too numerous for the art to effectively police itself. Ah, well…c’est la guerre.

28

They will be tested by various BJHJ stylist? What are they gonna do walk into the guys school and kick his ass? This is america jack. We have laws lol.

Of course there are BJJ Mcdojos. The teacher can earn a legitamte black belt and promote people as simple as that. Pay the dosh, pay for your uniform (tax write off for the school btw), pay for your belt, pay for your instructorship and there you go. You “learned” from a qualified instructor. Doesn’t take a phony instructor to make a MCdojo, just a lax one.

29

Chris McKinley is correct

“You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting”
Spinning Backfist

30

I guess I just haven’t seen it in my area yet.

I still think the centralized regulatory body and major competition formats will help keep it high-quality… I guess you can liken it to boxing. There are a lot of chumps out there in a lot of chump gyms. On the other hand, if you’re serious, the major competitions (golden gloves, etc) will be your goal and you’ll train to that.

Again though, I never said it WON’T happen. I said it will be harder. There is a MUCH greater McDojo syndrome problem in CMA, Karate, FMA, etc, than there is in Judo, wrestling, BJJ, Boxing, etc.

Nice point about all it takes is low quality people to have low quality MA’s…

31

I agree merry(on the regulations making it harder to make mcdojos).

Unfortunately for us kung fu guys, we’ll probably never get rid of mckwoons until gladiatorial combat makes a comeback. I can just see it now:

 "For those about die in midair while attempting a tornado kick, we salute you!"
32

i agree. the constant emphasis that competition places on ‘testing conclusions’ helps to keep the art from becoming too commercialized.

but there is always going to be a part of the population that would prefer to enjoy the benefits of a style without ever really testing themselves. and if there’s a market, someone will come along to pander to it.

hype + general populace = opportunity = mcdojo

the thing to remember, i think, is that the above has nothing to do with real BJJ, any more than it’s reflective of real gung fu, taekwondo, or any other art. as long as there are real practitioners out there, then there’s hope. and i agree wholeheartedly that the competition format does mean more real practitioners.

the trick is in educating the general populace.

once again, i’d prefer to be wrong. and with any luck, i am.

stuart b.

33

Ap,

I agree. I think televised matches help. I think the general public is mostly aware, even if only vaguely, that there is this thing out there where people fight and it has no rules, and if you want to, you can see it on TV. (I know it has rules. Remember: general public)

UFC recently posted ads in Sports Illustrated, so that’s a large audience.

I like “testing conclusions,” it sounds so much better than “getting an asswhooping because your techniques didn’t work :)”

34

vasco see’s dead horse and once again beats it.

much like Don Quixote battling windmills, vasco refuse to believe in anything beyond the length of his arm.

kickboxing and bjj and jj schools all over the place are mcdojos.

you roll with the others in the school. just like anywhere else you spar with your mates and fellows.

doesn’t matter what any of us think or say, the proof of your skill is in the crystalline moment of combat.

the ring is not a realistic “street” place and any training done in teh confines of a framework of ring rules will offer minimal skill improvement when faced with a live combat situation on the street.

get with the times vasco, overall traditional Kung Fu training is superior to the limited scope of ring tournament stuff.
ring tournament stuff has it’s own value, but mastering an art is where it’s at for the true martial artist.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links

35

i am correct.

where’s my beer?

36

Just a side coment…

I see some of you say BJJ is a small comunity, i highly disagree with that, at least in my country. Bjj is by far the most popular martial art, there as schools everywhere.

“I AM EFFECTIVNESS”

37

And its also the one with the worst reputation.

There was a fight a few weaks ago in a party, martial artists were involved. Guess their martial art…

“I AM EFFECTIVNESS”

38

Ummm, ok Kung Lek. Whatever you say.

I disagree with the idea that sport training only “minimally improves” skill for the street.

I disagree that traditional Kung Fu training is superior to ring training. It’s different perhaps, but not necessarily superior.

And lastly, before this accidentally turns into an MMA vs Kung Fu thread, I believe that Kung Fu, TKD, Karate, Capoeira; almost any established martial art has the potential to be excellent in an altercation. How you train what you train in makes all the difference.

39

amen.

stuart b.

p.s. ‘testing conclusions’ is better for my ego than ‘receiving an arse whooping.’

:slight_smile:

40

xebsball

“Bjj is by far the most popular martial art, there as schools everywhere”

Are you counting Capoeria? Because when I was in Brazil I saw far more of that than anything else. Also my Sifu and his son are from from Brazil and they say that there is more Capoeria to.

BJJ may be a highly effective art but to be honest it is easier to roll than spar with strikes of any stand up style. Well maybe not easier but less painful less bruses etc. Wait, I mean you can just tap in BJJ. Uhhh You guys get my point but I am sure this will get twisted.

www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net