[QUOTE=Happy Tiger;1301404]I have been sharing, of late, an opinion I’ve believed for decades. It’s cannon that Ip Man had at least two distinct periods of VT training. What I don’t believe is that he had partiality in his knowledge. I was asked to clarify my comment of ‘street’ versions of VT.
Sorry to but in to the topic late but I just returned to the list after a number of years.
Personally I think there are a lot of factors to take into account. Although he was quite traditional in some facets of his life and world view. I think Ip Man was influenced by the Guoshu movement and his teaching approach continued to evolve over his life. Although the system was reworked between his Foshan and Hong Kong period, his approach to teaching continued to evolve even in Hong Kong between the 1950’s and 60’s.
[QUOTE=KPM;1301422]We know Ip Man studied with Chan Wah Shun as a child and CWS died pretty early on. So CWS’s student Ng Chung So took over teaching Ip Man and was really the one that taught him the majority of his Wing Chun. Ip Man was also friends with Yuen Kay Shan, who was older than him. Their families were from the same social circle. It is said that Ip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, and Yip Choi were all friends and hung out together. They were known as the “Three Tigers of Foshan.” So it stands to reason they would do some training together and exchange ideas and techniques. So I believe that Yuen Kay Shan’s Wing Chun was a pretty big influence on Ip Man. It is also said that Ip Man studied with Leung Bik, who was said to be Leung Jan’s son. But this has never been substantiated. From everything I’ve read and seen, I would put my money on Ng Chung So and Yuen Kay Shan being the biggest influences on Ip Man’s Wing Chun. Then he, of course, changed things to suit himself based on his own experience.
Solid points. There is quite a bit of evidence of the existence of Leung Bik. Ip Man himself told a number of senior students and confidants about him besides what was written about his interview with new martial hero mag. He did not regard him as his Sifu however as it would not be proper tradition to do so. I think Ip, Yuen and Yiu were all good friends who used to hand around at Ng Chun So’s school and Chi sau and exchange idea’s. No doubt they all learned things from each other.
IP man himsef said that he learned from Leung Bik and that what he learned from Leung Bik
was much more concept based and complete. The details in CWS, YKS and Ip Man’s wing chun
are striking.!!!
!!![/QUOTE]
Very True Joy! Not only did he tell a number of students but mentioned it in his interview with New Martial Hero Magazine. Anyway, Finally I have some time here and there to get back to the list. It has been a few years. Good to see you posting still! Take care my Friend!
[QUOTE=KPM;1301436]It is a muddled topic from the start. Not “muddled thread.” When Ip Man wrote an article about the history of Wing Chun for publication, he mentioned nothing about Leung Bik. People around in that era have said that the Leung Bik story was added later. And its not even clear that Ip Man was the one that added it.
If you have details of CWS’s Wing Chun, I’ve love to hear about them! Do you have a source or reference? Because the Wing Chun taught later by his son likely has many additions and embellishments and not at all what his father taught.
However, if you compare the Wing Chun that Ip Man taught early on in Foshan and to Leung Sheung in HK, there are many similarities to YKS Wing Chun. Now that may very well be because the Wing Chun taught to both Ip Man and YKS was very similar from the start! So its hard to say. But given the passion for Wing Chun that Ip Man displayed, does anyone really believe that if he was hanging out with and friends with another Wing Chun guy like YKS that had a good reputation of his own, was senior to Ip Man, and came from another branch of the tree…that Ip man wouldn’t have exchanged with and learned from him??
As far as Leung Bik. Someone turned up photos of both Leung Jan and Leung Bik a couple of years back but I’ve never read that these were actually authenticated in any way. People have gone back and tried to find traces of Leung Bik in HK and turned up nothing. This lead to the idea that Leung Bik may have been a nick-name. Some have said it was actually Fung Wah, who was a student of Leung Jan in Foshan, but not his son. So there is that possibility. As noted, it is a somewhat “muddled” topic![/QUOTE]
Actually the Ip Man lineage story written was meant to be a general history for the establishment of an organization that was a precursor to the VTAA. As to the Ip brothers there are personal influences in by of their teaching methods but Ip Ching is much closer to what his father taught in the 60’s until his death (Moy Yat’s assertion). As to Leung Bik people will believe what suits their view point https://www.facebook.com/pg/SingaporeIpManVingTsunKuen/photos/?tab=album&album_id=349128988508337
This information is very valuable to me. I have never believed that the first generation descendants of Ip Man were ‘interpreting’ what was taught them. I know they are transmitting what they were taught. But it cannot be denied they are many quiet different. We used to have a fellow visit our gwoon who by his own admission wasn’t the best or most dedicated VT player. He said many people ‘hung out’ at the club. Athletic Clubs were also to a degree,
social places Folks played Tiles or just read papers and talked. Gossiping o the players.
. Uncle Yough said Ip man’s hands felt different to different people. Yet since then , most Masters you can tell their house as soon as you touch hands. Perhaps VT needs a period of additive as opposed to subtractive progress in
? Looks like we all win this one.