The problem with traditional CMA is...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
101

I think part of it is many of the techniques that were recorded in the forms were originally counters to commmon attacks of the day. these types of attacks are not seen much in today’s world, and outside of preserving them in the form for the day they are needed again, are not much use today.

The other BIG thing, and one that is comonly mentioned, is modern Kung Fu fails to take the traditional aproach of actually pressure testing the methods in order to refine them into instinct.

It’s like doing body work on a car. You can go to the parts store, and get the book and “See” how it’s done. You can even try and fix a dent or two on your own car with some succsess, but when the wrecked car comes to the shop, it’s the “old timer” with years of actual collision repair experiance who is called to fix it.

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my thoughts

Seven years ago I was at a psychological crossroads in my life, I had a crushing expericence mentally and I was very much on the border line of flipping out perminate. During that time I had been reading some of the classic chinese philosophical writings…Mencius, Chaung Tsu, Huang Tsu, All the the Te Chings and what not. So they keep talking about tai chi, chi and the likes, I picked up a tai chi tape and book and tried to practice that, I was nervous to try and join a school. So I did that for about a year and my mental and emotioanl state was radically changed.

I had no clue how to use this stuff to fight or as martial art and even though I would look at the aplication pictures in the books and watch the video, I never belived I could do any of it with out trying it out on a real oponent. I knew I had found something that helped change my life. I decided to find a school, I looked and eventually was tured on to Choy Lee Fut.

After practicing all the basics, maybee one year into it, I decided to try and spar with some friends, some took karate, some tkd, some nothing, I sucked, it only took five mintues to find out that I didnt know what the hell I was doing. My teacher just laughed at me when I told him about it. I still enjoyed the practice regime. I was going minium three days a week four hours a class, and for a one year stint while I was out of work I wne four days a week four hours each time.

So after about 3 years at my school (plus one year self taught from a book lol ! plus one year of private lessons in clf) which is a total of five years, finally we get a couple of students who are really into sparring, they had taken mantis fpr a good amount of time, up until that point our school only had about 4 or 5 students at any given time in class and no one was really into the sparring, even the main senior (which is fing stupid)…so after watching those two guys spar and them encouraging me to join in i found out that when I was pressured, even though I was sloppy and still nervous, all the forms and bag work and thought i put into it actully paid off, I was using from my style and doing fine.

My teacher said many times " you like fight, you do, some guy no fight, do the work no the time." “only you fight can make fight better.” “do the pole for the health” “kung fu do the keep heart good” the guy the knife take your money, give him" “one time tell bad guy no, two time tell go way, three times tell him, cut his face.”

now two years after that and sparring regularly, I am by no means a full contact ultimate street death match fighter, but I can fight, use the motions we traing with (not all of course) and hold my own, as well as get rolled up my share of times as well. Broken ribs stretched tendons and ligements, sprains, wrist, foot inuries all happend in the process, we train pretty good contact, and Its very mentaly and physically rewarding. I have to work a lot on my leg work against shorter opponents, ground workd and a host of other things, but all in all, its MY choice to get better at this.

People have changed, times have changed, but I dont think the arts have changed so much I you find an instructor who wont bull sheet you and lets you know its how you train that makes the difference.

hope this wasnt to boring or what not.

peace
bryan.

103

nice post :slight_smile:

104

I think part of it is many of the techniques that were recorded in the forms were originally counters to commmon attacks of the day. these types of attacks are not seen much in today’s world, and outside of preserving them in the form for the day they are needed again, are not much use today.
I keep hearing this, but which techniques and attacks are not longer encountered? :confused:

105

Sticking, for one…

106

Are there no variations of sticking still around? What did sticking counter in the first place and why did it go away?

107

what do you mean? so back than people didnt try to sucker punch you with a cross or a hook?

108

So, if you never practice those (outdated) counters then what happens when you face off with someone who actually uses the moves he trains when he fights? I suspect you’ll be in deep doo doo.

I just think it’s a matter of peeps not training them to the point where they’re workable in a real fight.

“these types of attacks are not seen much in today’s world,”

Care to hazard a guess as to why they aren’t seen much today? I really don’t thinks it’s because they don’t work. If that were true they would have been discarded long ago.

109

ROT,
Maybe not, maybe it was long armed ape swings, or hearty Chin Na’s not commonly seen today. Fighting evolves my freind. Heck, even the way the MMA guys fight today is totally different than just 10 years ago.

Different regions had different fighting styles unique to thier regions. So naturally counters were developed for that, and were not seen elsewhere because the common attackes were different else where.

Fighting is like a language, every region has it’s own dialect. Today, we try to preserve old dialects because in reality we generally don’t need to fight for our own survival anymore. Kung Fu today is an exercise in connecting with our history as humans, not anything we NEED to be humans…anymore…

For example, My honest answer to vertually ALL self defense situations is this --------------> Pepper foam.

It’s simple, easy to carry, legal every where, as well as being mean and sidistic stuff that not only fully and effectively neutralises the attacker, it fills the primal need to really hurt the SOB too, yet it is non lethal, and not really very injurious, AND it’s seen as a defensive weapon, so the very fact that you “Had” to use it makes the attacker look guilty, which helps you when it all gets to court.

All this other MA stuff is just because we really need some sort of connection to our primal roots for our physical and mental health. We are NO DIFFERENT from our caveman ancestors at all. The only thing is we simply know more stuff now.

We were evolved to deal with a physical word, in a physical way. Today, society has evolved away form what we were originally designed to live in, and that causes a great deal of problems as we are NOT designed to deal with the world we live in. In other words in the last 150 years or so, society has rapidly out evolved our physical beings. Martial arts, of whatever form, fills the void, and helps us by letting us exist in our natural, primal state for a certain amount of time. This keeps us healthy and strong so we can better deal with the unatural world we live in.

And THAT, my young aprentice is why we must beat eachother silly when we are done drilling our basics. :smiley:

110

Care to hazard a guess as to why they aren’t seen much today? I really don’t thinks it’s because they don’t work. If that were true they would have been discarded long ago.

Reply]
I think it’s just people are doing different stuff now. It’s a whole big huge, long, drawn out paper sizzors rock game. For a while, rock was the winner becasue it crushed sizzors, till someone started covering with paper. Then Paper ruled all and now sizzors is the shizznits becasue it cuts paper. In time, it will be rock again, because rock crushes sizzor.

This stuff is all really very simple. Don’t over think it, you’ll miss the boat.

111

So, if you never practice those (outdated) counters then what happens when you face off with someone who actually uses the moves he trains when he fights? I suspect you’ll be in deep doo doo.

Reply]
Correct. However, the counters are preserved in the forms. If there is sufficent need for them they will return to do the job as originally intended, and the stuff we do now will fall by the wayside untill needed once again.

Remember, it’s all just Paper, Sizzors, Rock…with cool uniforms :stuck_out_tongue:

112

For example, My honest answer to vertually ALL self defense situations is this --------------> Pepper foam.
And that is one really bad answer for most of them.

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why?

…

114

Well, let’s take the wrist releases that are taught so often for example. Why were they so important to learn back then? Because it was common for people to grab your sword hand, giving them time to unsheath their sword and DECAPITATE YOU!!!

115
  1. If it’s in a purse or pocket it has to be deployed.
  2. It can be difficult to operate under stress
  3. You can spray yourself or get a back blast if sprayed too close
  4. It doesn’t incapacitate the attacker. They can still move, still hurt you.
  5. The average grade for street use is not very powerful. 2 milliion SHU’s and over is good.
  6. They expire and can leak, and are seldom replaced.
  7. They take 5 to 10 seconds to take effect.
  8. It can enrage the attacker.
  9. The effective distance is usually shorter than what the manufacturer says.
  10. The foam version can easily be scraped off.
  11. Size matters. You have to carry a big enough dose of the spray for two attackers. Most people that I’ve seen like the tiny little ones on a key chain which if they’re lucky will be enough for one person.
  12. They can give a false sense of security. OK anything can. :wink:

A quality spray is good for something but they are not good for everything. Are you training these people that you are suggesting use the foam? Do you show them what it can and can not do?

116

  1. If it’s in a purse or pocket it has to be deployed. ---->Any weapon has this issue

  2. It can be difficult to operate under stress—Again, same for most things, Including MA’s, unless it’s a lifestyle

  3. You can spray yourself or get a back blast if sprayed too close—>Possible, but foam helps prevent this.

  4. It doesn’t incapacitate the attacker. They can still move, still hurt you.—> Never seen someone not severely effected by this. I went down fast, and was too blinded to effective do anything.

  5. The average grade for street use is not very powerful. 2 milliion SHU’s and over is good.----> so, get the good stuff.

  6. They expire and can leak, and are seldom replaced.—>replace them

  7. They take 5 to 10 seconds to take effect. —>On me when I got sprayed, it was pretty fast, defently enough to stop anyone quick.

  8. It can enrage the attacker.------>LOL, ever get sprayed by this stuff?? Even by accident as i was?

  9. The effective distance is usually shorter than what the manufacturer says.----->But far enough

  10. The foam version can easily be scraped off.----> I got sprayed by this (As a Joke fo God’s sake!!, She didn’t believe it did much…at least I got a good apology!!), all that happened is it got rubbed in worse.

  11. Size matters. You have to carry a big enough dose of the spray for two attackers. Most people that I’ve seen like the tiny little ones on a key chain which if they’re lucky will be enough for one person.----So, get the big ones!!

  12. They can give a false sense of security. OK anything can. ---->Ok, true

A quality spray is good for something but they are not good for everything. Are you training these people that you are suggesting use the foam? Do you show them what it can and can not do?

Reply]
I’m not teaching anyone anything right now, but working on restarting my kid’s Kung Fu club. MOST people won’t train in anything anyway.

117
  1. It doesn’t incapacitate the attacker. They can still move, still hurt you.—> Never seen someone not severely effected by this. I went down fast, and was too blinded to effective do anything.
    Here’s what we found. If you think it will take you down then it will take you down. Anticipation plays a good part in any demonstration. We had one fellow who was convinced it wouldn’t stop him and it didn’t. He looked a real mess but he was able to fight and able to see enough. And this was some very good non-civilian spray. I caught some civilian grade by standing in the wrong place and it sucked, but I still was able to get inside.

So, get the big ones!!
Most people will only carry what is easy to carry. That’s just the way people are.

  1. It can be difficult to operate under stress—Again, same for most things, Including MA’s, unless it’s a lifestyle
    And that’s the bottom line. It has to be a lifestyle. Like you said, “MOST people won’t train in anything anyway.” and while spray may not need the training of a martial art you still need to train with it on somekind of regular schedule.

Let’s let this thread get back on track. :slight_smile:

118

I think the double wrist grab is a very effective perhaps most so (against bigger and stronger opponents) way to close the gap into grappling range and set up a throw. A judo person without a gi for example has to grab the other person somehow to throw them, and if their hands are in front of the body blockding the clinch from happening than grabbing the wrists is the only method to bridge this gap for a judo person. You can grab the neck but they can easily push you off if you hold it for more than a second. grabbing the legs can be very abd against a heavy person that you wont be able to lift as well. I think some ving tsun guy made a quote “if he can’t grab your arms or wrists what else is there” and I agree with this point.

Maybe not, maybe it was long armed ape swings, or hearty Chin Na’s not commonly seen today. Fighting evolves my freind. Heck, even the way the MMA guys fight today is totally different than just 10 years ago.

if that is the case than explain why today in every part of the world people fight and attack the same and explain exactly what date it happened (after the ivnention of the last kung fu system or before?), also explain how haymakers arent similar to long ape swings?

119

I think it is narrow to assume that mma-ists who use modern methods that are shown to be highly effective tactically are “muscle headed jocks”. And to make those statements is more indicative of the issue laying squarely with the persons making the statement.

Why is it that when someone wants to explore the reality of aggression and combat they are labeled? But Martial artists are higher lifeforms? lol. I guess you are higher up in society if you don’t practice what you preach as opposed to teh other way around?

as for antique techniques, well, not gonna go into a long list of what is and what is not useful, but i can shorten it up.
There are some stylists that insist on keeping the guard level and not up. That thinking alone is antique. When I say up, I mean cover your head and not standing there with your hands in front of you on your centerline. That guard comes up a lot in traditional ma and is an invitation to get your head taken off quite simply.

I don’t even want to go into the array of kicks that are taught that are pretty much tactically useless. But I will say there are some useful kicks suck as push front, shovel, shin round and a couple of others are high percentage compared to say butterfly kicks or tornado kicks or jumping spinning back kicks and so on. These fancy kicks are still taught in many trad martial arts despite the fact they are useless tactically. I guess you could use what you wanty given the time you have, but I’m talking effective vs ineffective in a 1:1 scenario.

classical weapons are antique. they are fun, they develop some wrist strength, they will give you an understanding of the weapon and some of the stuff that maps over to other weapons, but for the most part, they are antiquated and useless. Weapons haven’t come forward with any realism at all. Who the heck is gonna whip out a kwan dao? or a broadsword?

baseball bats? probably a good idea to get to work on figuring how to defend against one. knives? for sure. But if a screaming 17th century madman with wind fire wheels ever attacks me, I’ll know what to do!

Kungfu can be modern. It can be updated and it behooves the current propogaters of the tma to do so. Get rid of the old traditionalist thinking for one minute and take a look at what you really have in your hand. It is something that need constant care and polishing, not to be dragged out and shown to wide eyed people who don’t know a hook from a cross.

If TMA can’t make a place for itself in the world of modern combatives, then it had best start considering relegation to cultural dance centers.

I mean, where do you think a lot of the goodness that is mma comes from in the first place?

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All routes or paths were taken over 2200 years.

The fencing of straight swords became a dance or pre-arranged drills for entertainments or rituals since the warring states.

Shuai Jiao is a sport since the first Dynasty of Qin 2200 years ago.

Chan and Yi Jing Jing or exercise started in Shaolin over 1400 years ago.

Qi Gong and theory of Qi and Dan Tian rooted in Daoist practices to remain healthy and live longer. Ba Duan Jing popular since Song Dynasty.

If you want to use some stuffs from CMA in MMA or UFC, go ahead. There are 2 ways. One is that the MMA fighters pick up some techniques from CMA and use them in the ring. The other is that CMA practitioners enter the ring following the rules and change their practices to fit the rules.

There are many formats, routes or paths to use the knowledge and practices of CMA. The MMA, UFC, Lei Tai, Kuoshu, San Shou are some of many “formats”.

What is popular will come and ago with the practitioners winning the formats. The rule changes so will the methods or styles of fighting. So now are MT and BJJ. Tommorrow may be something else.

The most popular Kung Fu is Wing Chun. The widest practiced physical activity is Tai Chi. TKD and karate schools are in every corner. MT or kickboxing is in fitness gyms and Tae Bo, too. BJJ schools are increasing.

Tommorrow what styles we shall see.

And yes, Wushu and TCMA remain for the most part in China, Taiwan, Hongkong, Singapore etc.

What is popular today may not be there tommorrow.

What is the direction of the wind today? We shall set sail.

And yet what is your goal or destination?

Your goal will determine where you will be going in the end. The formats, popular trend etc are winds to change course to move forward and yet you will arrive at where you want to go in the end.

If you want to fight, fight and take whatever work for you TCMA or BJJ or whatever.

If you want to be healthier and fitter, then practice your Qi Gong set, Shaolin Yi Jing Jing, Ba Duan Jing, Dao Yin, Da Yan, or whatever.

If you want to wield some swordplay, wield away or sway away for balance, coordination etc. Swordplay actually will help you fight, too. If it helps UFC or MMA fights, if that is important to you, I dunno.

If you want to practice staff (Gun Shu), then swing away. If it helps UFC or MMA, oops, there are no weapon comps in them–

:smiley: